Should I add a DSB?

[course-its-reefsafe]

Afternoon all :D

My tank is 5 * 2 * 2 with plenty of live rock/flow etc. At the moment, my nitrate export is taken care of by a korralin sulphur denitrator which keeps it at less than 1ppm. Withiut the sulphur filter though, it creeps up to ~5ppm.

I have a 4' sump, 2' of which is given over to a refugium which contains caulerpa etc and a thin layer of sand.

Do you think it would be benficial to set up a proper DSB with the structured layers. Do they actually work to keep No3 very low, or are they a bit hazzardous to use in the long term :confused: has anyone added one and it's dropped their no3 down?

Any input appreciated ;)


Cheers

Chris :)

[Kev]

Hi Chris

I have no experience of dsb, and could not comment. I think from what I read on this forum there is mixed feeling about DSB, but I will leave that for others to comment.

Kev

[Blue]

FJ has kept his going for 6 years , so perhaps it he is the best to know the long term effects of a DSB. I have 1 running on our show tank with no probs as yet.

[Dal]

I have a friend who swears by deep sand beds in sumps/refugiums, he has two tanks both running dsb. He's main tank has been running 15 years with the same dsb so this is prove enough for me if it looks like this
(he'll kill me for this)
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/driftingdal/222.jpg
As long as you make sure the dsb gets oxygenated .
Reefcriters will help you out with snails that will sort that
Im sure a dsb will benefit you
hope this helps cheers

[course-its-reefsafe]

Thanks guys :D


dal, that picture looks amazing, I wonder if his DSB is removing other nutrients as well as nitrate to get colours like that in his SPS?


Cheers

Chris :)

[Kev]

If it was not for the give away pump, that picture Dal posted looks just like the ocean!!!

Kev

[Dal]

I am amazed by his tanks go round there as much as i can:D

The colour has alot to do with light i will find out the spec of his halide cant remember of hand!

[Blue]

That tank is the living proof of a DSB and it is awsome.

[SteveS]

chris, if you do add a dsb, id research if it suffers any new tank syndrome symptons while it goes through its cycle, especially if you have live stock in your system. i dont know the answer or even if it would be a problem, just a thought mate.

steve

[Kev]

There are many ways to achieve an awesome tank, but I agree, its bloomin AWESEOME. A credit to the owner / artist.

Kev

[course-its-reefsafe]

The colour has alot to do with light i will find out the spec of his halide cant remember of hand!


That would be appreciated. Mind you, I have 900W over my 5' and my corals have recently started browning out for some reason that I can't get to the bottom of. Unless it is just the No3 of 5ppm, but I doubt it :confused:



chris, if you do add a dsb, id research if it suffers any new tank syndrome symptons while it goes through its cycle, especially if you have live stock in your system. i dont know the answer or even if it would be a problem, just a thought mate.

steve


Thanks Steve. I must admit I think that adding one would cause some sort of problem, no matter how carefully I did it. That's really why I would like some definate answers that people have added them and their No3 has dropped away. I'm back on the sulphur filter now, but it would be nice to have a system that was completely reliable and maintenace free.

Cheers

Chris :)

[SteveS]

chris, could you run the main tank and sump as closed loops, that way you could by pass any new tank syndrome? what about miracle mud, though this needs 50% changing every couple of years

steve

[course-its-reefsafe]

That sounds like a plan :D

I could just switch the return pump off for a couple of days and let the skimmer pull any muck out the water.



I'm not a fan or miracle mud, I personally feel its a bit gimmicky and relies on the algea growth to control nutrients. It seems very expensive for iron enriched silica sand as well :eek:



I'd have to get a lot of positive feedback before trying the DSB, I do feel that a lot of tank problems are caused by too much "tinkering", I did waaaay too much of this in the early days :o :D


Thanks m8



Chris (run out of smilies)!!

[Dal]

That tank is the living proof of a DSB and it is awsome.


There are many ways to achieve an awesome tank, but I agree, its bloomin AWESEOME. A credit to the owner / artist.
Kev


Thanks for the comments on he's tank he is the reason I changed to marine and has been my mentor ever since but he hates showing off his tanks.

I just needed to prove dsb work and this was the best way i could think of
Im adding one soon to my tank so i will update you on any probs or rise and fall in paras
Ill phone him tom for bulb spec etc
cheers all Dal

[Kev]

he hates showing off his tanks.

No worries. Big shame though, I am sure we could all learn something from this guy.

Kev

[flying Jock]

The only problem two problems i ever encountered was that i used all coral sand to make up my first DSB which caused compacting and high nitrates.

The second one was DO NOT try and move a DSB to your new tank unless you want to loose thousands in sps!

Apart from that they work fantastic at reducing nitrtates and will harbour massive amounts of microfauna which in turn will feed your main tank.

Not bad for a bit of sand!

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m299/Flyingjock/newtankupdate4001.jpg

Cheers

FJ

[course-its-reefsafe]

Thanks FJ :)

I think I'm going to go for one then, I'll leave it a couple of weeks untill I've got a bit more time though.


Do you think mine would be large enough to be beneficial? it'll be 2' by 18" and the main tank is 5' by 2'. Is that enough surface area of sand to do the job do you think?


Cheers

Chris :)

[Kev]

Be interested to hear how you get on Chris.

Thats a cracking photo FJ.

Kev

[flying Jock]

Cheers Kev!

Yeah i should think that your DSB will be fine for your set up.

I do however have mine in my main tank as well as 2 refugums but set in a sepearte tank or sump would be great!

Another one of my reef:

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m299/Flyingjock/newtankupdate5009.jpg

Cheers

FJ

[course-its-reefsafe]

Thanks for the info :) and another cracking picture ;):)


Cheers

Chris :)

[Dal]

No worries. Big shame though, I am sure we could all learn something from this guy.

Kev


I know big shame. I always consult him on most things I do and am learning of him as much as I can Its always good to have a mentor at the end of a phone, aquatic shops are good but most just want to make money,

also fj your tank is a big credit to you lovely pics:D

[Gillybaby]

A wee word of warning:

We've just converted our one year old mineral mud sump to a DSB using the mud as the bottom layer. The nitrates have always been less than 10 but we were fed up with the yellow water caused by the mud. However, 24 hours after adding the DSB and putting the sump back on line, our nitrates climbed to between 25 & 50 and have stayed there ever since - thats nearly 2 months now. I've lost my only acro and my three monti's are looking sad and starting to bleach. Everything else is fine though, LPS & Softies are thriving as are the fish.

As I understand it DSB's take time to bed in and start working, but we are still waiting for ours to kick in. Hopefully it will be soon.

Don't want to throw a spanner in the works, just wanted to warn you of what may happen. I've been assured that the nitrates will come down once the DSB has matured. I'll let you know.

[course-its-reefsafe]

Thanks for that Gilly, sorry to hear of your misfortune :(


I think I'll do some more research then, my sulphur filter would take care of a rise in nitrate, but 2 months later I'd be expecting to see the DSB kicking in. Maybe long term dosing with ethanol may not be such a bad option :D


cheers

Chris :)

[Kev]

Just some quick questions:

I understand, I think, why you would dose with ethanol. But, is it easy to overdose? What are the consequences of this and how do you know how much to dose?

Kev

[course-its-reefsafe]

Hi Kev,

Most people dose with vodka, it adds carbon to your tank which the denitrifying bacteria use. From the reading i've done, it seems that no-one has done it long term so no-one really knows the consequences.

i'm lucky enough to have access to ethanol (pure alchohol) so I dont have to add all the extra inpurities that would be in vodka.

The dose rate seems to be 1ml vodka/100l tank water. Assuming that vodka is 40% alchohol by volume then the dose for ethanol would be 0.4ml/100l.

I've been dosing the tank at work, and my own tank for nearly 2 weeks to bring the sulphur filter back on-line faster, if you're interested i'll let you know the results.

Edit: Forgot to add, I dont know the consequences of overdosing, I've just been using the guide above. I imagine it would be quite destructive to overdose, but I'm no biologist and I don't really know.

HTH

Cheers

chris :)

[Kev]

Hi Chris.

I am interested, and curious. Years ago I had this german built system, going under the name of minireef. It came with a nitrate filter which had a special bag which slowly released an alcohol based solution in to the filter as a food for the anerobic bacteria. When I ran out of the solution, I never replaced it, and found no difference in performance in the system.

A DSB is a very different animal though. I am interested, I just like to hear about what works / doesn't work. Helps with the knowledge you know. All part of the learning even after all these years.

Some just say I'm a nosey ******.:D

Kev

[course-its-reefsafe]

That's very interesting Kev.

I wonder if the alchohol built up a number of the bacteria, which then became self-substaining when the bio-load built up?

I just wish I knew something about bacteria, but they're a complete mystery to me.

They're part of the key of my "nitrate mission" though, so I'm trying to learn ;) :D

Cheers

Chris :)

[Kev]

Quite possibly the alcohol just helped it get going. It was a good system though, I just had some inert rock in the tank - fish only, including a superb threadfin butterfly and a big regal tang.

The system, despite a non existence of live rock, and fish only, had low nitrate levels. So whatever happened in there, it worked, alcohol or not.

Kev

[flying Jock]

Hi

Can i ask GB what sand have you used for your DSB?

This is a critical factor when setting up.

I would not add anything in my tank i cant test for and let nature work its magic.

Anyone got a vodka test kit?

PS how do i get smilies up on my messages?

Cheers guys

FJ

[Kev]

:D :D :D I think theres a button somewhere in the edit profile bit that enables these little guys.:)

Kev

[Gillybaby]

Hi

Can i ask GB what sand have you used for your DSB?

This is a critical factor when setting up.

I would not add anything in my tank i cant test for and let nature work its magic.

Anyone got a vodka test kit?

PS how do i get smilies up on my messages?

Cheers guys

FJ

Hi FJ

The bottom 1" or so is the mineral mud that had been running for a year, the next 2" is fine coral sand (1" of it fine sand from my old tank which I used as a top for the mud and the rest of it livesand cause that's all I could get at my lfs) and the top 2" is 2-5mm coral sand (washed in RO before use).

I think my problem is I did the changeover at a really bad time - having just finished stocking fully with fish and I didn't give the system enough time to catch up. And effectively covering up the denitrifying mud layer and cutting it off probably didn't help much either.

The tank is heavily stocked with 5 large tangs, emperor angel and foxface amongst others so they are producing a huge amount of waste. I'm not too worried, just sitting back waiting. I'm sure the levels will come down soon, indeed I'm not sure if my Salifert test kit is being completely reliable but I've always found them a bit hit or miss with nitrate. It just means I'm sworn off buying anything at the moment :(

If you can give me any help with getting the readings down quicker FJ it would be much appreciated - ta.

Sorry to hijack the thread for a mo ;)

[flying Jock]

Hi GB

When you look at your DSB can you see migration trails running through the DSB especially the upper layer?

The reason i am asking is that you may have a little too much coral sand on the top layer as i have found after a certain depth of corals sand (normally over 1") micraofauna seem to struggle with moving through the larger sand grain size.

This in turn leads your DSB to act like a nitrate sink (i found this out the hard way)

I agree with the salifert test kits!

Some seem good for the job and others such as phospahte are very poor and give way out readings!:mad:

Anyhow let me know how you are getting on:)

Cheers

FJ

[Gillybaby]

Hi FJ

There do appear to be trails through the top layers of the DSB but I might remove some anyway. I'll keep an eye on it.

Actually, I have to confess. Did something really daft with my nitrate test kit. I discovered, when I bought a new nitrate test kit, that I had accidentally mixed up the mixing tubes at some point and was using the smaller sized one for the magnesium kit. Used the correct sized tube and the reading is between 10-20 which is actually ok. All this time I've been panicing over a reading that was too concentrated - lol.

I'm off to sit in the corner with the dunce hat on ;)

[flying Jock]

Dont worry we all do it!:p

Sometimes your stock is a better indicator of tank conditionsa as once you get to know your reef you can usually see if there is something up.

Glad your nitrates are not as bad as you thought.

Your DSB should be pulling your nitrates to near zero when it is fully functioning.

Cheers

FJ

[course-its-reefsafe]

Ok, quick update :D


DSB added Sunday, I'll let you know how it goes :)

Thanks for all the advice,

Cheers

Chris :)

[Blue]

Nice1 , keep us informed :)

[reefbloke]

Following with interest;)

[Tangman]

Ok, quick update :D


DSB added Sunday, I'll let you know how it goes :)

Thanks for all the advice,

Cheers

Chris :)

Hi Chris what size sand have you used and how deep have you made it, i am thinking of adding one to my new tank setup which is in a sump about 36inch square. Will be following this as i want to get as much info on DSBs as poss, sorry about all the questions but i'm sure you understand. :) Eric

[course-its-reefsafe]

Hi Eric, no problem :)

I did a fair bit of reading and got some different answers on this, but in the end I went for the simplest which is all just very fine sand. Aragamax is the recommended one but I couldn't get hold of any of that so I used 3 bags of Caribsea coral sand and 2 bags of very fine crushed coral sand.

My DSB area is 2' by 18" and I've got a depth of about 5" as the advice I followed suggested 4-6." Even that small bed took 100lbs of sand though!!!!!

The theory is to use a fine a sand as possible to allow the critters to move through it easily :)

There's worm tracks through it already, I'll keep you posted but obviously feel free to pm :)

ATB

Chris :)

[course-its-reefsafe]

Ok, 9 month update :D


It made absolutely sod all difference, I'm just in the process of ripping it out.

Be warned people, they're easy to add but very awkward to get out :mad:


Cheers

Chris :)