nitrate problem advice plaese

[Leon]

Hi to all first time on site. i have problem at the moment with a constant rise in nitrate all other other tests are fine i do a weekly or no more then ten day 20% change using ro mixed and vented and heated 24hrs before.i bought the tank up and running but soon learned as i was new my self that previous owner didn't maintain it properly phosphate was sky high as was other parameters i added larger power head took all carbon and purigen and what ever else was in canister filter added more rings and cleaned sponges added rowaphos and also added a venturi skimmer i have manged to get on top of all other parameters but nitrate is still high i feed once a day and i use either dry flake but only a pinch all eaten with in 1min or frozen brine shrimp any ideas and tips would be of great help :D

[Macca]

I am sure it is your cannister filter that is causing it but I should really get more info from you first. I am busy right now but will be online tonight

James

[Leon]

ok thank you ill speak to you tonight what time will you be on thanks for reply
Leon

[Gillybaby]

Hi Leon, welcome to Reef Critters :D

A couple things come to mind when looking at your set up:


As James says, the canister filter - these are great for phosphate remover, carbon and even liverock rubble. But any other media, whilst good at converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate cannot convert nitrate to its less harmful components for removal by a skimmer so it just adds to the nitrate in your system. In a berlin system the liverock and skimmer should be the only means of filtration.
Your powerhead - how is it positioned? Whilst being fairly powerful, you may get a better result with two or even three powerheads creating turbulance in the system with one specifically pushing water through the liverock structure to aid the liverock's filtration capabilities.
Your skimmer - what make is it? Nothing beats a good skimmer eg Deltec MCE600 or TMC Pro V400 for example, whilst fairly expensive they are, imho, worth their weight in gold for the job they do.
Clean up crew - or lack of. Tangs are notoriously messy fish and create a lot of poop - a good hard working clean up crew is a must to clean up the mess, even though you don't have many other fish. Any detritus lying about your system is just adding to the load.


These are just my initial thoughts, others will be able to expand on these and see things I've missed.

In the meantime, it would be helpful to have exact readings for nitrate as well as any others parameters you test for, eg SG, PH etc. Also, an idea of roughly how much liverock you have and how it is arranged would be useful as well as a picture (purely because we are a nosey bunch ;) :D ).

Don't worry, these guys are world class at getting nitrate in systems sorted. You are in good hands.

[Leon]

thanks for the reply ill get my camera hooked up and post pics tonight when i work out how its done not sure in weight about live rock but you ll see it in pics it more than ample for my tank size.i wish id knowing more when i got this tank because i would if gone for a sump as less hassle for top ups and additives arnt they but in my living room its just not work able with tank and cabinet set up as you ll see and mrs will kill me if i added out else lol:D so i ve got to try to get the best out of this set up even if it means more water changes and messing about its better than getting on the wrong side of the Mrs!!!!!!!!!!lol.as to you asking where power head is its in far right looking straight direct onto live rock and at opposite end i have canister filter outlet and in middle skimmer inlet I'm just about to do water change so ill let tank settle and test abt seven and report back.

[Kev]

Hi Leon and welcome.

I would echo the above. In my tank one of the factors that bring success is that I have a Tunze Stream 6060, along with a small 2000lph internal filter. The large Tunze operates in only a little over 30 gallons of water, which is constantly being brought into contact with the live rock by the strong flow, keeping it very "fresh". I don't think you can underestimate how much flow can benefit the water quality of a system. A seemingly dull system can be freshened up by increasing flow, something that I have experienced in the past.

Kev

[Macca]

Echo all comments above. "Echo" PC talk is going to my brain :D

Anyways the cannister filter as GillyBaby already says is very good at breaking down the 1st part of the nitrogen cycle Ammonia ---> To Nitrite and the second part Nitrite ---> Nitrates. Unfortunately it cannot deal with the 3rd part Nitrates ----> Nitrogen gas. So what could be happening is your filter and bio rings are quickly comsuming Ammonia and Nitrites but have to allow Nitrates to build up.

A way round this is to allow the Live Rock and Live Sand to do all the filter work. Why??? Because not only do they house the bacteria that does the nitryfing breakdown Ammonia > Nitrites > Nitrates they also house the bacteria that is responsible for denitryfing Nitrates > Nitogen gas.

The sand bed must be deep enough (2-3 inch) to allow this process and be of the correct grain of sand (IMO - :eek: I hope I have not opened a can of worms here). The Live rock already has these regions deep within the rock were no oxygen is present.

When you put protein (Fish Food) or a fish poops etc it begins to deterioate and will soon become part of the nitogen cycle above. BUT BUT BUT If you have a quality protein skimmer you can remove these proteins before they are consumed into Ammonia etc.

Please Note: I know that what I have said might not be scientifically correct or on the other hand it might well be, but for a general understanding it works for me. Hopefully I have made it work for you.

James

[Kev]

James, makes very much sense to me.

Kev

[Leon]

thanks for the reply James and Kev, so if im getting this right i need to ditch the canister filter but with me not runnig a sump how will i use my rowaphos,and do i just simply stop running the canister or slow it down over a matter of time. and add another power head where the filter out let is [how much more power do i need] or could i break filter down ie take everything out sponges and rings and just leave the rowphos in baskets use it as sort of mini sump as was thinking of ways to make my water changes simpler and was thinking of pluming in and tappinig off the fluval pipe and then was going to make 20 liter tank it will fit in cupboard and could simply attch a suitable pump open the tap and add new water at controled pace same for adding supliments ie ph buffer etc and still add another power head. I have a load of photos of tank but i ve tried to up load them but this site says they are too big they are only of a camera phone i ve never typed so much and sorry for wanting to know the far end of a fart :) lol

[Macca]

Your signature says "loads of live rock 1"1/2 live sand" So remove sponges and bio rings from the cannister filter (biological media). Clean canister filter out and run your carbon / rowaphos etc only. Remember to recharge with fresh rowaphos and carbon as this will become biological through time.

Hope this helps

James

[Leon]

ok thanks i ve mailed you some pics so you can see what im running would you add another power head at the other end of tank and how powerfull will it need to be thanks again with all the help.

[Kev]

Hi Leon

I think the choice is ultimately yours. Its hard to imagine what your system looks like aquascaping wise. But it would be best with an open structure to allow good circulation with no dead spots. I think you need to make your own judgements regarding water flow, in my system the flow is extreme with pumps rated at over 8,000lph for a 30 plus gallon system. When I look at the surface of the water it is moving rapidly.

I personally use no carbon / rowaphos, but bearing in mind I run a softie only system with a few lps this is not a problem in my opinion, particularly with a 5 gallon water change every fortnight. My tank has no sump either.

In respect of posting photos, use some photo editing software to reduce the size of the picture. I reduce JPEGS to 540 x 405. I used a bit of trial and error. The size may vary dependant on the resolution of the photo.

Kev

[Leon]

hi Kev

James is going to sort my pics i ve sorted some software of friend been on the phone so when i get it as you say trial and error mainly error lol ill work it out so you can see what im talking about, ive just noticed your on msnmessager ill try and rember my passworn and other mail address cos think you can send through that and i could see your tank for ideas

[Kev]

Hi Leon

If you want to see my system, here is a link to some pics posted on this site.

http://reefcorals.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=4250#post4250

Its a great hobby, so hang in there, things will go the way you want.

Kev

[Blue]

Hi leon and welcome,
I'm glad your are getting some sound advice from some good aquarists.
If you need to know anything at all don't ever worry about asking for help,this is what we are here for.

[Tangman]

Hi Leon, Welcome to the site. I will second the advice you have been given about your Nitrate problems. Eric

[Leon]

thanks for telling me about this site chris its been a real eye opener reading some of the posts and other links every one is top class it gets me out of ya shopquicker so less ear ache lol.

Kev seen your set up looks smart ill have my pics up soon james just sent em back

[Kev]

cheers Leon, look forward to seeing your photos.

Kev

[Blue]

No worries, it is my job to listen and to help you, I am glad you have found some sound advice, just remember that whatever you do in your tank, you must do slowly, or a bit at a time so as not to upset the balance of your tank.
This way you will not give youself more problems.

[Leon]

hi all finaly sorted pictures out

[Leon]

i ve up loaded them how do i get them on the post i can see them on my photos on the message link

[Leon]

finaly it was all in front of me im thick lol

[Gillybaby]

Nice wee tank you've got :D I like the darker blue background too.

Another powerhead at the opposite end of the tank, maybe a slighter less powerful one, should create a nice turbulance - imo anyway. As said, the aim is to have no deadspots where detritus can accumulate.

Loads of good advice here - you'll be sorted in no time. Be sure to keep us updated with your progress and don't forget, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask - there is no daft question in this business ;)

[Kev]

Nice looking tank Leon.

I think Gilly is right, and in my opinion WOULD opt for a second pump at the opposite end of the tank. Really get that flow going.:eek:

Kev

[Leon]

hi all ive done another water change again this week checked water before added and all fine just done another test and its 50ppm nitrate as mentioned can i justt stop using canister or do i need to phase it out and what out put on extra power head do i need. its not gonna win:)

[Kev]

Hi Leon

You may want to play it safe, and just remove a third of the media over a period of a week or two. I doubt there would be issues for you, but best play safe in my opinion. I would also look to add a pump at about 2000lph. Again, you can only do good with the extra flow.

Kev

[Leon]

hi kev
yeah good idea ill take out a basket tommorrow and do it gradual this week and keep on doing couple of partial changes done a fu;; teat salt is a1 ammonia 0 same for nitrite and ph is fine and same with temp just mailed chris at marine tec to price me one up and get it and ill get power head thursday if hes got em in cant wait till i can chill and just watch the tank what a battle lol:)

[Kev]

I would start relaxing now. I remember in my early days of the hobby, I used to panic and start headlong into major change with some horrendous results. Just take everything slowly, the golden rule in my book. Particularly in the early days of a young tank.

Kev

[Leon]

ill try to chill got into this with my eyes shut realy and dont want to kill anything love watching the tank the plasma screens taken a back seat since i got the tank lol:D

[Kev]

The Plasma is history? You are hooked Leon. No what you mean though.

Kev

[TerraC]

coming alomg nicely, id keep the external for carbon & rowaphos and the extra flow. remove the media gradually and you'll be fine.

Ray

[Kev]

pm sent

Kev

[Kev]

Another alternative if you really want to run Rowa / Carbon, although I still don't feel it necessary in a softie tank, would be to maybe use a small low flow internal canister filter.

Kev