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Macca
09-16-2006, 05:36 PM
Nitrogen cycle in reef aquaria refers to the process by which biological waste by-products are converted from toxic substances to harmless compounds through the actions of bacteria. In a properly setup tank, this process occurs naturally through the actions of bacteria that colonize different areas of the tank. Establishing this process in the first place is known as 'cycling' the tank.

There is probably nothing that causes a new hobbyist more consternation than dealing with getting a new tank properly cycled. It is the first hurdle that the hobbyist must confront and successfully overcome in their quest for the perfect reef tank. Although the science behind what is going on is quite complicated, the process can be understood and controlled with only a basic understanding of the principals involved.

First, an understanding of the steps involved in the nitrogen cycle is required in order for the hobbyist to successfully monitor the cycle and know when the tank has successfully completed its cycle.

The nitrogen cycle is composed of 4 basic steps.

Ammonia: Ammonia (NH3) initially enters the system via biological waste. These wastes may come from fish poop or dead organisms which are decaying in the tank. These wastes mineralise into the compound ammonia. Ammonia is a very toxic compound. Bacteria which colonise rock and sand surfaces utilize ammonia as food and convert it into a new compound called nitrite. Ammonia should always measure zero in a fully cycled tank.

Nitrite: Nitrite (NO2) is only slightly less toxic than ammonia. Fortunately, there are other types of bacteria that also colonise sand and rock surfaces which consume nitrites as food and convert them into nitrates. Nitrites should always measure zero in a fully cycled tank.

Nitrate: Nitrate (NO3) is a relatively harmless compound. Nitrates tend to accumulate in the reef system if it is not setup correctly. Fish can tolerate fairly high nitrate levels, but most corals do not. Nitrate is also a plant fertilizer, so its accumulation can lead to algae problems. The brute force way to control nitrates is to do large water changes and therefore dilute the nitrate levels, but there is a better, more natural way to deal with nitrates. Nitrates in a fully cycled tank should ideally remain at zero, but up to about 20ppm is acceptable. Higher levels may lead to issues with coral health or algae growth in the tank. Some corals may actually benefit from the higher nitrate levels, but they are atypical.

Nitrogen: In a properly setup reef tank, the nitrates can be further processed by special types of bacteria which convert the nitrates into harmless nitrogen gases which escape into the atmosphere. When the process includes this step, the nitrogen cycle is completed and the tank will maintain zero nitrates without significant water changes or the requirement for specialized external equipment to remove it from the system. The key to this final step is to provide oxygen poor areas of sand or rock. The bacteria which perform this last step of the process only live in oxygen poor (anaerobic) areas of the tank. The surest way to establish these anaerobic areas is to include a sand bed that has sufficient depth and sufficiently small particle size to restrict water flow in the lower areas of the bed.

Establishing the nitrogen cycle in the reef tank

It should be somewhat obvious that to establish the bacteria which convert ammonia to nitrites, a source of ammonia must be added to the tank. Once these bacteria start producing nitrites, the bacteria which convert nitrites into nitrates can start to establish themselves and of course, once nitrates are available, the nitrate converting bacteria can start to establish themselves, providing the hobbyist has taken steps to provide a suitable oxygen poor home for them.

The 'trick' to establishing the nitrogen cycle in the tank is to do it without endangering any tank inhabitants. This generally means that the part of the cycle which converts ammonia to nitrate should be established before any specimens are added. Fortunately a ready supply of ammonia is introduced with the live rock that is introduced into the system. As the live rock goes through its curing process, the decaying life forms on the rock provide the starter fuel for ammonia and nitrite consuming bacteria to colonize the rock. When live rock is being cured and this process is getting setup, toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite can form and specimens cannot be introduced until it is verified that both ammonia and nitrite have dropped to zero levels through the use of test kits. Typically, while this process in occurring, the hobbyist will measure an increase in ammonia and then it will start to drop as ammonia consuming bacteria start to grow. The hobbyist will then measure an increase in nitrites as the ammonia gets converted to nitrite. As the nitrite consuming bacteria start to grow, the nitrite level will also start to fall. When both ammonia and nitrite levels fall to zero levels, the cycling is complete. Typically, the nitrates will be high at this stage and the water that was involved in establishing the cycle should be replaced with new saltwater.

Once the live rock is cured, the basic tank cycle has been established and the live rock can be stacked in its final arrangement in the tank. Even though the basic bacteria types have been established, the number of bacteria will fluctuate depending on the bioload of the system. Also, there is probably not much bacterial colonization of the sand bed at this point. Therefore it is important to increase the bioload of the system slowly so that the bacteria colonies can grow to match the load of the system. If a lot of fish are added to a newly cycled tank, the sudden increase in waste products will cause a new mini cycle to start all over and since there are specimens in the tank, they are at risk of death or injury due to the ammonia or nitrite spikes that will occur. Corals and clams do not generally add bioload to the system, so they can be added more freely than fish or other critters that require constant feeding.

The final part of the nitrogen cycle (converting nitrates to nitrogen gas) has to be established after the tank is setup. The first thing that a hobbyist must do is to ensure that the reef tank provides oxygen poor regions in the live rock and sand. Old school was that this was to be avoided at all costs due to the concern over noxious gases, such as hydrogen sulfide, being formed. This concern seems to be overly exaggerated and can probably be ignored for the most part. It is important however, that once these oxygen poor zones are created, that they not be unduly disturbed.

To setup these anaerobic regions I recommend the following:


Provide a substrate of sand which is no larger than 1-2mm and which can be finer. With this size of sand, a sand bed with approximately 2" of depth should be provided. This is sufficient to ensure that the deeper areas of the sand bed will become anaerobic and allow nitrate processing bacteria to colonize it. This is an area in which DSB's (deep sand beds) are often recommended. However the same thing can be accomplished without the 4-6" deep sand beds which are recommended by DSB advocates.


Going against common wisdom in the literature these days, placing live rock directly on top of the substrate also helps to create these anaerobic regions. Many hobbyist spend a lot of effort to provide frameworks to keep the live rock off the sand to allow full circulation, but I believe this effort is misguided. For instance, I see people suspending their live rock on PVC pipe so that they get full water circulation and then they install a DSB to establish oxygen poor zones. Seems counter productive to me. The same thing can be accomplished by placing the live rock directly on a 2" deep sand bed. It is easier and it occupies less of the tank depth.

There are also some things to avoid that can tend to impair the nitrate conversion process:


Do not use a wet/dry filter with biomedia such as bioballs. It has been established that these filters do a good job of converting wastes into nitrate, but their use tends to cause nitrates to accumulate in the system. The reason why is not well understood, but many hobbyist have been able to cure nitrate problems by removing the biomedia from their filters. One school of thought is that when nitrates are created in the sand bed, they are created near the nitrate converting bacteria in the lower regions of the sand bed and therefore get processed more readily. It is recommended that anyone who is running a wet/dry and who has nitrate accumulation problems should consider slowly removing the biomedia over the course of a couple of weeks to give time for the system to adjust.


Do not use coarse crushed coral for the substrate. The large particle size allows too much water circulation which does not allow the necessary anaerobic regions to develop.


Do not disturb the deeper regions of the sand bed any more than necessary. This obviously disturbs the anaerobic regions. This typically means that you don't want to use a siphon to clean the sand bed. If you must for some reason, try to limit this actively to a small region of the tank only (10%?) so that the majority of the filtration process stays intact. A light stirring of the upper portion of the sand bed through the actions of sand sifter creatures or through the actions of the hobbyist are fine.


Do not overfeed the tank. Once a tank is established, the primary source of inputs into the nitrogen cycle are introduced through feeding of the tank. Although a reef tank does not need to be starved, like early authors tend to state, feeding excessive amounts of food can aggravate the process and should be looked at as a variable that can be controlled if nitrates tend to accumulate. Some people like to feed heavily and this can often be tolerated as long as the food is increased slowly so that the bacteria colonies have time to grow to a size sufficient to process the increased bioload.

This article was found on the web and unfortunately no author mentioned

The paragraph in red I have highlighted due to the fact I would be intrested in Chris at the reefranch responce.

The 3 blues statements


This is an area in which DSB's (deep sand beds) are often recommended. However the same thing can be accomplished without the 4-6" deep sand beds which are recommended by DSB advocates. Heard of this before and would be intrested in other opinions


It is important however, that once these oxygen poor zones are created, that they not be unduly disturbed This is very very important


Corals and clams do not generally add bioload to the system True but also very delicate and I would personally would not put these into a newly cycled system

Your thoughts would be much appreciated. Although I found this a general good article

James

celtic fish
09-16-2006, 07:04 PM
hello james,being new to reef keeping after 15 years of fish only systems alot of these ideas have been thrown at me . for instance not disturbing the substrate ,this for me is the way of getting rid of detritus which causes nitrate and also removing media from filters even denitrifyers like siporax it really goese against everything ive ever done hmm strange

Macca
09-16-2006, 07:39 PM
for instance not disturbing the substrate ,this for me is the way of getting rid of detritus which causes nitrate

Yes detritus will be broken down to nitrates but unsettling the substrate is in fact killing your nitrate filter. If you let oxygen water in your sand bed then you are killing the nitrate eating bacteria. Also a more lethal factor is that you will be leeching out (forget the name but smells horrible) that can kill the life within your system. That is why you do not touch anything below the sand surface.


and also removing media from filters even denitrifyers like siporax it really goese against everything ive ever done hmm strange
There is enough denityfing bacteria being hosted within your live rock and sand. Filters can sometimes cause an excess of nitrates hence why most people remove bio balls from AM tanks if they are running a reef setup. You can leave them if running a fish only system

James

Blue
09-16-2006, 08:19 PM
Many americans are now using the sand bucket system, which incorporates, just having a bucket full of sugar sand or smaller next to the sump or tank and having a very slow flow over it. I have found this popping up all over American sites. Apparently it is very successful. There's a thread on reef central at the mo. All the tank of the months have a deep sand bed of 4" or more and they all have zero nitrate.
I will be having a trial on this method shortly and shall post the results later.
Kindest regards Chris.:)

Macca
09-16-2006, 08:43 PM
Chris can you not delete a double post? Also would be intrested in the Nitrate bucket, sound intresting

James

oakwell
09-17-2006, 08:26 AM
Some valuable info there...nice piece

subz88
09-17-2006, 10:26 AM
Excellent piece on the nitrogen cycle :)

I've read that clams actually thrive in nitrate rich water. Does anyone have bad experience of keeping clams in too pure an environment?

Next question regarding DSBs, how do people ensure they have enough microcritters in their sand beds to maintain adequate movement and prevent buildup of noxious gases and glycocalyx binding? Reason I ask is a few years back, one of my sand beds essentially turned into a lump of concrete! in america you can buy sludge packs to seed your sand beds with. I haven't seen anything similar in the UK.

Macca
09-17-2006, 11:53 AM
Was it a DSB or a plenum Sub?

James

subz88
09-17-2006, 12:47 PM
DSB in the main aquarium.

Blue
09-17-2006, 08:31 PM
Excellent piece on the nitrogen cycle :)

I've read that clams actually thrive in nitrate rich water. Does anyone have bad experience of keeping clams in too pure an environment?

Next question regarding DSBs, how do people ensure they have enough microcritters in their sand beds to maintain adequate movement and prevent buildup of noxious gases and glycocalyx binding? Reason I ask is a few years back, one of my sand beds essentially turned into a lump of concrete! in america you can buy sludge packs to seed your sand beds with. I haven't seen anything similar in the UK.

I've heard that about clams also, but, regarding the sand I think there is no exact amount, all we can do is to put a good few bristle worms in and such like, depending on the size of sump etc. The only other way is to knife the sand in small areas as mentioned earlier.
Kindest regards Chris.

Blue
09-17-2006, 08:49 PM
I always give customers the sludge out of the liverock curing vat, so maybe your LFS could do that for you. If not maybe we could post you some.
Regards Chris

subz88
09-17-2006, 09:24 PM
I always give customers the sludge out of the liverock curing vat, so maybe your LFS could do that for you. If not maybe we could post you some.
Regards Chris

Thanks Chris that's very kind of you :)

liquidlogic
09-17-2006, 09:34 PM
very very interesting and learnt finaly wht anearobic bacteria is / lives. thanks for that mate:).

Blue
09-17-2006, 09:50 PM
Thanks Chris that's very kind of you :)
No probs.Glad to help.

tonyponty
09-21-2006, 08:54 PM
yes very intresting topic cheers

Chris, Reef Ranch
09-30-2006, 09:46 AM
Just scanning the first few sentences it is very well written in a non ambiguous way by someone who is well qualified but by their own admission is not completely aufait with this subject. Respect to the word smith! However, James what is the point of having a scientist at hand who is familiar with denitrification if you don't dump all the post they have submitted on this subject in this thread.

My next article in Marine World will deal with this in depth.

Chris

Chris, Reef Ranch
09-30-2006, 10:16 AM
CHEMISTRY BACKGOUND TO DENITRIFICATION


Denitrifiers and Denitrification
All organisms need sources of nitrogen (N), carbon (C) and sulphur (S). These basic building blocks are essential to synthesise amino acids that are incorporated into the proteinaceous structures of or bodies, and all other life on the planet. The use of NO3-, sulphate (SO42-) or CO2 in this way is called assimilative metabolism. The use of NO3- in an assimilative process is known as assimilative denitrification (ad). Ad removes only a small amount of nitrogen from the environment, because the structural requirements of organisms are finite1.

The type of denitrification we try to encourage in our aquariums is dissimilative denitrification (dd). During dd sources of nitrogen such as NO3- are used to accept electrons and generate energy. The products of dd are released directly into the environment. Dd is able to biotransforms a huge amount of nitrogen from one form to another, but it is only performed by certain bacteria1.

The desired bacteria for the task of dd are facultative anaerobes. These microorganisms can live in the absence or presence of DO. True anaerobic bacteria perish when exposed to DO whereas obligate aerobes need DO to survive. Make no mistake it is not one pure strain of bacteria that performs dd. It is an extremely diverse mixed population with varying nutritional demands.

In natural substrates such as rock or in layers of sand, microenvironments exists in close proximity to one another that contain varying quantities of DO2. We must learn to think of the anaerobic and aerobic states as not clear-cut extremes where either oxygen is present or absent, but as range of DO values inclusive of just anaerobic and just aerobic. This zone should ensure that the denitrifier is inhabited by facultative anaerobes utilising NO3- in a dissimilative process.

In denitrifiers with an internal recirculation pump, DO should be at a somewhat uniform concentration throughout the unit. The feed from the aquarium that carries oxygenated water into the denitrifier must be quick enough to prevent complete stagnation, but slow enough to provide a microaerobic environment. It must be set to allow the unit to run in the zone.

Taken to the nth degree, the environment in which dd occurs must contain NO3- and no oxygen. This is because the expression of nitrate reductase the first enzyme involved in the chain of events to perform dd, is interupted when oxygen is present and NO3- is absent. Without nitrate reductase, all the other stages of dd can not occur1 (Fig 3.).

Nitrogenase enzyme is utilised by cyanobacteria to assimilate nitrogen from DN. Unlike nitrogenase which is inactivated by the presence of oxygen, the effect DO has on nitrate reductase is simply to interrupt its expression. Expression of a protein involves deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) transcription to messenger ribonucleic acid (mRNA), and the subsequent translation of mRNA into protein. Protein synthesis is a lengthy process but once synthesised, protein stability and activity is long lived. As I understand it, this would mean that if a bacterium is occasionally exposed to DO at low level, denitrification would not suddenly stop. Denitrification would cease only when DO is continuously elevated beyond a certain threshold, and only then when the activity of existing nitrate reductase is lost.


PS James didn't mean to come across as angry in the last post. Just pulling your leg a little!



Chris

Macca
09-30-2006, 10:27 AM
Forget about pulling my leg you have fried my brain with this last post. However your articles are much appreciated Chris just takes me a while to work out what they mean. It is like trying to read Doctors hand writting.

Give me a day or two and I will submit my opinion on your post :eek:

James

Blue
09-30-2006, 02:08 PM
Please do not be offended, this is not my intention.
This information is all well and good, but to a majority aquarists, this information (myself included) is only valuable if you have a dictionary at hand to understand half the terminology.
I really do appreciate this information, maybe it just needs to be put into simpler terms.
Regards

Chris, Reef Ranch
09-30-2006, 02:32 PM
James read this it is in English.

Having read a little more of this article some parts of it are a bit misleading. If you check out my large post above it is not stagnant environments (anoxic or anaerobic) that perform efficient denitrification. Anoxic environments are for the most part putrefied and can actually produce more nitrate. Additionally they can also harbour the dreaded hydrogen sulphide.

The reason why nitrifying filters cause nitrate to rise is simple. It is only low to zero oxygen environments that can denitrify. Nitrifying filters are extremely efficient at converting ammonia to nitrate in the water column. Water is not forced through low to zero oxygen environments. It takes time to percolate down to them. The organisms that perform denitrification can only perform it in environments where the oxygen tension is sufficiently low. They can't come out grab nitrate and go back in!

In reality within substrates, pockets of low oxygen, zero oxygen and everything in between exist side-by-side. Therefore, nitrification can go on right next to denitrification. In these circumstances the nitrate can literally be grabbed as it is produced and denitrified.

Natural substrates are in balance. I.e. generally the rate of nitrification is similar to denitrification and these processes are simultaneous. Nitrifying filters just produce nitrate and no denitrification can occur in the water column where oxygen is high.

N.B. Deep sand beds in aquariums are not sustainable. They fill up with fish poo (detritus), the processes breakdown and the oxidative redox potential of your aquarium suffers greatly. DSBs cannot be cleaned because they contain poisonous sulphide underneath. In sumps they can be extensively pre-filtered so they are to all intensive purposes sustainable. Never be tempted to disturb them. never put rocks on them to compact the bed further to encourage sulphide and putrefication.

HOPE THIS HAS CLEARED UP SOME MYSTERIES CONTAINED IN THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE.

Did all that really just spill out of my head?

Chris

Macca
09-30-2006, 03:34 PM
Yep, I can understand this and it makes good reading. One thing I always thought about and it makes sence. If your DSB or Main tank is run with a very fine sugar sand then the fish poo stays on it surface and does not fall in between the grains. With a good water flow the poo is simply broken down into the water column. Am I right in thinkiing this? If you have a large grain size then the poo can get trapped between the grains and you are the just collect debris with your sand bed.(Higher nutrients = higher nitrates). Anyone?

James

Chris, Reef Ranch
09-30-2006, 05:22 PM
The problem with sugar fine is A- the price and B- it has a massive surface area. Like all DSBs and plenums it does create pockets of sulphide, but more so than larger grain sizes (H2S --->H2SO4 (sulphuric acid)). Additionally bacteria give out carbon dioxide (CO2---->H2CO3 (carbonic acid)). The up shot is that is eventually goes to mush and becomes a similar consistency to fondant icing, because it is made of carbonate and it dissolves. It obviously at this point it also clogs. Once clogged it is no good for denitrification and becomes a smelly written eggy mush. I have know this happen inside a year!

2-5mm grain size aragonite is the best. ~£18.99 for 25kg. Complete denitrification in a sump 1" deep in the absence of caulerpa. For refugium 1 1/2" deep so that it does create an anaerobic environment at the bottom. This anoxic layer creates ammonium and nitrate that rises back up through the bed to nutrify the algae (Bob Goemans, personal communication). No need for mud.

Chris

Macca
09-30-2006, 05:44 PM
Chris you have me thinking now, Do I go for

1. Sugar fine - low nutrient capture but a chance of turning into mush

or

2. 2-5mm - Possible nutrient sink but will not dissolve in a mush

Arghh

I also hate bare bottom as it shows up every bit of poop.

James

Blue
10-01-2006, 12:01 AM
I think maybe a mix of sugar fine sand and a larger grain sand is best in my opinion, along with a few critters that move the sand about at the surface and a few to work through the sand itself.
All is not to the letter as not all tanks are the same.

Kev
10-01-2006, 08:31 AM
All is not to the letter as not all tanks are the same.

I think thats a really good point, and one reason why I struggle with all of this technical theory.

Kev

Chris, Reef Ranch
10-01-2006, 09:46 AM
Sustainability all the way. If this is a commercial system it would be irresponsible to not have the DSB in a prefilitered sump. DSBs or plenums in tanks are just an accident waiting to happen.

Sugar fine! All that glitters is not gold. Put it like this, I am a retailer. Sugar fine is expensive to the hobbyist so I would make considerable money on selling it all day long. However, DSBs of this stuff are not sustainable for any length of time. Either in a sump or otherwise! Who do you go with the person who is trying to persuade you to spend more money? Or, the person who is giving nothing but sound advice for free!

The last one I saw in a well known retailers show aquarium in 18 months was covered in diatoms and cyanobacteria. I have it on reasonable authority that soon after the system was broken down, stripped and re started.

Either way James, you have seen my system run on 2-5mm grain size. How does it compare to other systems that have been running with minimal water changes for 2 years?

Chris

Chris, Reef Ranch
10-01-2006, 10:05 AM
James,

If it is for a domestic aquarium, there is a relatively new product out. Formanifera shells. They are spherical, microscopically porous and made of pure carbonate. They are approximately 3mm in diameter. This is expensive, but it will not turn to mush, it is pure carbonate therefore no phosphate/silicate. It has far more surface area for bacteria to colonise than aragonite of any grade!

It's called reef base spheres from Red Sea. Yes we sell it.

The way of getting round cleaning a DSB or Plenum is to put a gravel tidy ~1 cm down into the bed. Then it can be cleaned every week. This will prolong the life of the bed, but it still won’t last 10 years! This is called the Jaubert Plenum.

Chris

Macca
10-01-2006, 10:14 AM
Chris no one can argue you water quality is pristine and your knowledge on the subject is vast. In a DSB with sugar fine you can actually watch the de-nitrification taking place by the production of nitrogen gas. You don’t get this IMO with a coarser substrate or it is not noticeable. I know for a fact that coarser sand does collect nutrients. As when I have stripped a tank down with a coarse sand/gravel the muck is unbelievable. I genuinely think fine sand does not collect detritus in the same manner as it actually sits on top layer.

Think of these two scenarios, Current bringing detritus to a sandy shoreline or to a rocky pebble shoreline. The pebble shoreline just collects the muck while the sandy shoreline keeps it on the surface.

Sulphide is certainly an issue with a DSB hence why you cannot disturb this. This is my opinion I personally think if the DSB if set up correctly, i.e does not gather poop, has a good flow. Has a good population of critters. Is well looked after then sugar fine sand is the way to go. This is my opinion only and this hobby is all about opinions.

Chris your system goes against the general guidelines so you have got me confused as your system is healthy and vibrant.

James

swish_fish
10-02-2006, 10:07 PM
Oh this is a fun thread I've missed this one developing. Forgive me if I'm wrong but doesn't oolitic sand desolve when PH drops below 8.1. Could the systems you've witnessed not have desolved due to poor PH or perhaps a calcium reactor lowering the PH prior to the water entering the DSB area and thus desolving the sand. Also if this was the case then then testing the water perams would not have shown any of this as the desolving sand bed may have buffered the water back upto 8.3 ish before entering the tank again.

Just a quick two pennys worth.

I do agree on mixing in a little course stuff though. Something like carib-sea west caribean reef sand.

Blue
10-02-2006, 10:48 PM
I do know one of our customers has kept a deep sand bed for a lot,lot,lot of years and has had little probs, I think that maybe a lot can have to do about the individual caring for their tank and what livestock etc including liverock and eaquipment they have. As I say, you can do test on a tank but the real test is on how much an indvidual is prepared to care for their own eco-systems.
In a closed environment, all factors must be considered.
We must all be open minded in the fact that there is no 1 dead certain way to doing this hobby, otherwise we would all be doing it that way, I only wish it was as easy as saying do it my way, but, as I say, no two tanks are the same, as are no two people.

All we can do is the best of our own capabilities.

Chris, Reef Ranch
10-03-2006, 01:18 PM
James,

With all due respect to all knowledgeable people in the hobby, the reason why my system runs so well and appears to go against some information currently in the hobby is that there is lack of FISH people in retail who also have in depth scientific knowledge. With all due respect to them, they observe something and coincidently something else happens at the same time. It then becomes legend- similar to old wives tales that A THING causes SOMETHING ELSE. In reality it is only people who have an immense background of knowledge in a relevant subject that are qualified to make a judgement on what really happened. This is why there are so many different OPINIONS.

May be I should be qualified in psychology and anthropology to be able to make the above statement?

MY BACKGROUND
Briefly- 5 years as an Assistant Scientific Officer in an Analytical Chemistry laboratory for the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and Food (MAFF), 5 years running a Microbiology Pathology laboratory for ADAS (Now CEFAS/DEFRA). A Bachelor of Science Honours degree in Biotechnology, a Master of Research in Applied Fish Biology and close to 28 years + in marines.

There is the odd person in retail that I understand is aware of certain scientific truths. One example- Andy Cane. As I understand it Andy has major experience in running and designing commercial systems in the trade. People in the trade who are responsible for the lives of thousands of fish can’t get it wrong!

YES- all aquariums are different because there is so much miss-information in the hobby that they invariably are designed from a collision of differing OPINIONS. A classic case of “Too many cooks……… ………â ‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚ ¦..

Contrary to the above opinions all the principles going on in aquariums globally are the same therefore all aquariums can be the same and run as well as the next. The only time aquariums differ is when there are fatal errors in the design. As classic one- having a reef aquarium that is much taller then it is wide.

Sorry but I don’t have opinions all my information comes from sound scientific literature or contact with particularly eminent members of the trade or Universities. If I get asked a question that I don’t know the answer to I’ll admit it and find out for the customer. It is a wise man that admits he doesn’t know everything.

Within my field, I know why certain things happen and why certain phenomena ultimately cause problems (Scientific Fact). I can also qualify them through references and scientific reason. The hobbyists that take my advice and only my advice have aquariums that run like they have never run before.

If I can figure out how to include the picture of the reef in the store check this out. I think most people know when something is right.

This sounds arrogant, but arrogance is unfounded confidence.

NO CAN'T SEEM TO POST PICTURES ANYMORE, SOME ONE PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW?

Chris

Chris, Reef Ranch
10-03-2006, 01:34 PM
Hopefully this picture will post.

Chris

Chris, Reef Ranch
10-03-2006, 02:25 PM
Hi Again,

This debate has struck a note with something that is close to my heart. I am going to start a thread in the general discussion forum.

SHOULD MARINE RETAIL BE REGULATED?

For those of you who have been victims of bad advice and have been sold inappropriate equipment and set ups which inevitably lead to the loss of livestock and money from your pocket.

In my opinion there should be a basic qualification that people should have to have prior to them giving advice and selling on marines. The people who work in the industry are invariably on minimum wage and their advice does not have to be correct. This can lead to the suffering of animals that have been removed from the wild for our enjoyment. This should be regulated for the benefit of newcomers, existing hobbyists and the livestock that is sold to them. This would also benefit the people with qualifications because they could demand a higher wage.

The bottom line is that if human lives were at stake what goes on would not go on.

N.B. FOR THIS THREAD TO EXIST AND CONTINUE PLEASE REFRAIN FROM MENTIONING SPECIFIC RETAILERS OR INDIVIDUALS. THIS COULD LEAD TO ACCUSATIONS AND LITIGATION FOR SLANDER.

Please discuss!

Chris

Blue
10-03-2006, 05:21 PM
I hope you are not upset because I don't think this was the intention.
If this is going to upset you further, then I shall post no more in this thread.
How long has the above tank been set up?
I can see no coraline algae thats all.
The corals look nice and healthy.
Have you got a most recent pic?
Yours respectfully Chris.

Kev
10-03-2006, 05:40 PM
Hi Cris, Reef Ranch

In my opinion, science does go some distance in helping the hobby to come to terms with issues. However, I do not think that you need to have such an in depth knowledge be a very good aquarist or auqatic retailor.

I personally have "limited" scientific knowledge. However, I have been into marines for years, and know how to care for the creatures in my system, science does not tell me that, the health and vitality of my stock does though.

I think your knowledge is outstanding, and a credit to you by the way.

I think that what actually happens in a deep sandbed is very much theory. We may well have a chemical equation to back up findings, but what really happens will vary from system to system. I am rambling a bit here, but have enjoyed this thread.

Great debate by the way.:)

Kev

Chris, Reef Ranch
10-04-2006, 02:13 PM
Hi People,

NO, I wasn't getting upset I was just entering into a healthy debate.

The overall point I was trying to make was that when you set up a reef you want it to run for many years. You spend good money on it and the animals within it are expensive and taken out of the wild.

DSBs and plenums IN aquariums are one of the least sustainable forms of "filtration". By their very nature they accumulate large amounts of organics. Encouraging small animals to turn them over will make them more sustainable but eventually it is still going to go wrong! Admittedly they run for the first 9 months to year better than running the aquarium on just a bare bottom. It is also dependent on how many fish the aquarium will house. More fish means more poo and therefore the system will suffer earlier than if the fish populations are kept to a minimum. The amount you feed is also relevant. The higher the food inputs, less time the system will run for.

I understand that people perceive that they are trying to create a complete eco system in their aquarium- small animals to breakdown the poo and detritus created by the fish. This is in line with what happens in the wild. Do you really think that it is realistic to presume that in the volume of water you have and the area of substrate there is in your aquarium, that you can recreate the purification processes that are performed by trillions of gallons of water and trillions of acres of substrate in the wild?

DSBs and plenums can not be cleaned safely because of the sulphide below them. Release significant amounts of sulphide into the water column and lots of things die, particularly fish.

If you were a mechanic would any of you design and build a car that you could not change the oil in? By setting up a DSB or plenum in an aquarium you are going to ensure that the aquarium will eventually become nitrate ridden, covered in cyanobacteria and fish will die.

In response to a question above we have recently had cause to remove all the coralline on the glass. This happened approximately 7 weeks ago. The picture was taken soon after. Unfortunately it is all now back. The rock is covered in it but it might not be obvious from the photograph.

The way the system is run it has created a problem with respect to too lower nutrients. That is running at too lower levels of Nitrate and Phosphate which causes the zooxanthellae health to decline. Of course I was aware of this as soon at it started to occur. We now put approximately 250 gram of Artemia in it daily to redress the problem and all the corals are bristling with health. Running with nutrient limitation puts you in control because you can always add stuff back in. As you are probably aware the majority of hobbyists have delectable levels of these nutrients which of course are too high. Struggle as the might they can’t run nitrate of phosphate free. Our systems create the opposite effect. This allows you to put more fish and ahermatypic corals in and feed them excessively. The systems are also sustainable because in its entirety it can be either cleaned or extensively prefilitered and skimmed to prevent the sump DSB from accumulating poo.

James, do what you will, but when your system starts to go wrong (Estimated time- a maximum of 2 years, collapse in 3) you can guarantee that mine will be still running at undetectable levels of nitrate and phosphate, cyano free with healthy livestock.

Good jousting chaps

Regards

Chris

subz88
10-05-2006, 05:11 PM
Hi Chris (RR),

thanks for some intriguing reading. :)

So what would you advocate as being the best method of nitrification/denitrification for our small puddles of water?

Also what basic level of husbandry would you recommend to maintain the average reef aquarium to ensure many years of trouble free existence?

TIA,

Sub

Kev
10-05-2006, 05:17 PM
I have enjoyed this thread and a good question sub.

Kev

Chris, Reef Ranch
10-07-2006, 04:10 PM
Hi,

I am in the process of writing some articles on this subject for Marine World. We recommend on our systems. Top up for evaporation on a daily basis. Clean the glass once a week that should be just a fine peppering of algae. 5% water change every 3 months. Supplement for what animals take out and sit back and relax.

To run nutrient limited.
In Aquarium- 60% of Gallonage in kilo grams (i.e. 100 gallon tank=60kg rock). Arranged correctly, loose lattice (reef racking is better) powerheads all hidden behind the rock, facing the front glass (unimpeded to the front glass). Little to no substrate. Flow 20 times turnover in the aquarium. Good skimmer on the back (Tunze, Schuran, Deltec, AquaMedic ONLY).

Sump System- Aquarium as above without skimmer. Process effluent by filtering through a 200 micron filter bag, preskimming chamber, through a refugium (DSB- 1 1/2" 2-5mm grain size aragonite and Caulerpa) and back up to the aquarium. Flow through sump 5.5 times an hour plus. 10 times is better. My designed sump accommodates for all these processes with any of the above skimmers. Example of price 21.5” wide, 29" long, 16" high £72. Polished bevelled edged glass, black silicone. Can be made to any size.

To redress nutrient limitation- a fine layer of mud substrate can be used in the refugium. Simple and elegant like nature and sustainable for as long as the silicone holds the glass together 10-12 years.

Chris

gregh
10-09-2006, 05:03 PM
Interesting thread,

Can I ask 3 clarification questions Chris?

You say a DSB of 1 1/2" in the sump, in my mind that isn't a very deep, DSB, more of a shallow one!

Secondly you also mentioned " never put rocks on them to compact the bed further to encourage sulphide and putrefication"

I put some small marble size pieces of LR on my DSB in the sump to create a mini area for critters to hide and propogate in the "dark" when the sump lights are on.

are small pieces ok or should I remove them?

What are your views on using chaeto?

Cheers,

Greg

Artyspider
02-26-2007, 10:48 AM
Wow what an interesting thread I found all of this info mind blowing.
Thank you all for a great read.
Off to lay down in a dark room for an hour while the brain clears :D
Clare :)

oakwell
02-26-2007, 11:37 AM
yes this is an interesting thread indeed