My JAD60 (Boyu 550) with MH lighting and extra filter still looks dirty - HELP PLEASE

[JimGilbert]

I have been trying to make my own way in marine world for the last couple of years and have now run out of patience or reading materails so help would be good. I have bought a JAD 60 tank off fleabay which is about 30 gal with a 150 w MH lamp and some LED for night light. It has the usual compartment filter at the back which i have recently put about 5 kg of live rock and filter media Course to Fine along with a new Carbon and Nitrate filter. I have also got an external CF 1000 filter running with Foam a little rock and mechanical filter elements.
I have got about 20 kg of live rock in the tank itself and Argonite live sand. There is 1 Clown, 1 Regal Tang, 1 Coral Beauty, 1 Damsel, 5 Nassua Snails. I have just added some Turbo Snails and Hermit Crabs as my tank looks aweful 'dirty' on the live rock.
I am now suffering from the Purple and Green Algea, i by no means feed excessively i dont think and this algea is a new problem.
Can someone tell me where they think i am going wrong or do i just need to let the recently added filter media and clean up crew to do their work as they have only been in abou 2 weeks.
I want to start putting corals in but darent while it looks so dirty.
My Nitrate, Nitrate, Phosphate, Ammonia and PH levels seem to be ok everytime i check but i have read that this can be a result that it is feeding the bad elements which mask the cause.
I am sure there must be enough filteration as the external filters is over and above standard requirements, the light is on only 8 hours per day, and i am quite a mean feeder and regularly use live food.
HHEELLPPPP PLEASE.

[r60sgr]

A few questions bud but answers will assist in trying to offer advice.

What circulation do you have in the tank other than filter returns? Foam I'd get rid of as that's a nitrate magnet. You say results seem to be ok but get a second opinion if not 100% sure and post the values up to help us help you. A Regal Tang in that size of tank is a no no. What do you feed the fish and how often that adds to nitrate? What phosphate media are you using?

Stewart

[Tangman]

Hi as said by Stewart water flow is important as it gives the rock some oxygen so it can process the nutrients. Also fish stocking needs watching in a small tank and a Regal Tang is way to big for a 30 gallon tank as they do grow to around 14 inch in length. It maybe is small now but its the waste they produce that is the problem. Your stocking needs to be based on 1 inch of fully grown fish to every 6 gallon of water and that does not mean 1x 5 inch fish, ie it needs to be worked out before you buy any stock as its not fair catching and netting the fish unnessasary to get them out.Also fish that need special feeding like Manderins are not a good choice in a small tank as they require a large amount of live rock to survive unless they are feeding on frozen food as some do. Keeping the water right is the key to keeping any fish and the main thing with marines is good live rock which is scaped in the tank so water can easily flow through it so it can do its job, external filters are not required like they are in freshwater tanks as the live rock is the filter along with a good quality protein skimmer. If you have external filters they only need be used for carbon and phosphate remover and filter floss and being changed or rinsed out every week so they dont produce nutrients. Another thing to bear in mind is the larger the tank the easier it is to keep right as stability is the key to keeping marines ie temperature kept stable and the salt level to 1.025/6, a small tank will warm up quicker than a large tank so causing problems also watch out for water evaporation as you will lose anything from 1 litre a day to 10 litres a day on a large tank and as its only the water that evapoates it raises the salt level so causing stress in the fish / corals. HTH Twiggy

[ShyTalk]

You are way over the top with your filtration mate, all of it will be a pain to keep clean.
Your live rock in the main part is pretty much all you need.
In my 24 gall nano i have a sponge, rinsed weekly in waste tank water, and a bag of carbon wrapped in floss....that's it, absolutely no need for anything else, so my advice is to ditch the rest and clear out your rear compartment of all other media.
From the equipment you describe i'm betting you've recently moved over from tropicals? It may have been needed or useful there, but you didn't have live rock then did you?

As above, really bad choice sticking a tang in a nano, they grow HUGE and a big ocean going fish, sticking one in a nano is like you being imprisoned in a packing case, plus you'll get nothing but grief off other reefers for being cruel to your fish.

Stick you water readings up for us to see, Ph, sg, nitrates, nitrites and phosphates will be a start, i'm suspecting high phosphates as with all that filter media you'll be trapping loads of crud in there & that will feed algae.

In your size tank you should have no more than 3 or 4 SMALL fish, so i'd recommend selling the tang on before it causes you trouble and stick with what you have.

[JimGilbert]

Thanks for the responses, the increased filtrations is a result of the appearance of the tank, i was trying to clean it. I will downsize the fish, the Coral Beauty and Regal Tang are on there way to the LFS. The contradiction on filtration is somewhat confusing, i thought and have read that water quality is key to success and acheiving the right water quality is down to good filtration.
I have some live rock but it sounds like you guys think not enough, there is loads on e-bay or is that a risk route should i buy at LFS for £13 per kilo rather than £6 on fleabay.
I will get the readings this weekend and post a picture so you can see what I mean by the term 'dirty', thanks for the guidance so far, please dont get bored with me, i am on the Reef journey big style now and need the help and advise.

[r60sgr]

I don't read not enough live rock in responses and think the weight of rock you have seems good. The live rock is your filtration and is the best there is. Good circulation around the live rock is key to ensuring the detritus (uneaten food etc) doesn't settle as that feeds algae through high nitrate. As has been asked please list your parameter readings as without that we're guessing a bit and that will only risk mis-diagnosis. The concensus is to get rid of the external because that will breed nitrate too. The polishing media Gav suggested is what should give you clear water.
Lastly we will stick by all your queries so don't worry about that bud.

Stewart

[JimGilbert]

Hello My Saviours

My readings are as follows to help with the diagnosis of my problem
Ph 7.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate between 5 & 10
Phosphate 0.5 or less if i am optomistic
I am sure you guys will see some symptoms from those readings, is it me but 5 to 10 for Nitrate does not seem that high ! I will bow to greater knowledge
Thanks again
Jim

[Macca]

any chance of a pic Jim?

[JimGilbert]

133751337413376Hope these are good enough, didnt think the tang was that big it would cause a problem, but i will follow advise i receive as my desire is to have a beautiful reef with a few fish, want the obligatory Clowns with a leather and can i have some Yellow Rock Gobbies for example to replace the tang and the coral beauty

[JimGilbert]

13377Hope these are good enough, didnt think the tang was that big it would cause a problem, but i will follow advise i receive as my desire is to have a beautiful reef with a few fish, want the obligatory Clowns with a leather and can i have some Yellow Rock Gobbies for example to replace the tang and the coral beauty

[Macca]

Have your CUC done any good? i.e eating the micro algaes?

[JimGilbert]

I really do think i might be being impatient, i only really added the CUC crew a couple of weeks ago and i should give them time to do their work. I can find 8 turbo snails, my 5 Nassua snails are all there, my hermit crabs seem to have been decimated and i can only find about 5 of the 10 i bought, same with the red legs, only 2 of th 5 are visible and the 10 cerith snails seem to have disappeared totally. More worryingly i bought 2 cleaner shrimps 2 weeks ago, they were find for a week then both dissappeared within a couple of days and i cant find my peppermint shrimp this morning. But the fish are fine!
That feels like a whole load of problems for my CUC crew or is it just normal and it feels bad because it has happened close together ?

[r60sgr]

Your pH seems a little low. What are the KH. Magnesium and Calcium readings? Are you buffering for these? Stewart

[JimGilbert]

I knew i would start getting a chemistry lesson eventually. Havent tested for the elements you refer to, didnt realise these would be so important in keeping the tank clean in the first instance. I am using the API Marine test kit plus the phosphate test, do i need to test for the other bits or start purchasing additives. What do you mean am i buffering for these, is there some reading materails which would explain what you are talking about, i am a bit of an information nerd !

[r60sgr]

The elements I refer to won't contribute to water cleanliness so you're right there but the cuc that are missing could be down to one or a combination of them. Calcium is the first basic element for them and their skeletal structure. You're pH is low, will not help and usually the buffering agent will boost pH and KH at the same time. Magnesium helps to prevent swings in all of the aforementioned stuff.

Firstly get test kits for the above and see what the readings are. Then, unless you intend very regular waterchanges where these elements are in the salt mix, you will need to buffer. Personally I use Seachem - marine salt, advantage calcium, pH/KH (reef)buffer and advantage magnesium. Some of the other guys can offer alternatives but Seachem works for me and has done for many years and is not expensive.

I think water polishing is the least of your problems right now and you need to read up a bit bud to prevent losses first and foremost. But putting filter floss somewhere in your filtration path should help that b ut change that regularly to avoid nitrate build up. HTH

Stewart

[JimGilbert]

Hi Again,
I have just had a thought, i bought a new bulb of ebay an iQuatics 150w 14,000k bulb for £15 could this 'cheap' bulb be some of the cause or is that ok. The Regal Tank and Coral Beauty are on E-bay and i have cut the feeding right back, my lighting is only on for 8 hours but i am still getting the Purple Algea taking over. I will do my readings again tomorrow just before a water change, which is my normal fortnightly 3 gal (10%) change with alternate day top ups due to evaporation of 0.5 gallons
Thanks again, really want to bottom this so i can get some corals in

[grumpy_banghai]

Only 8 hours! If you have no corals why so much? I think your bulb won't help & you need the lighting on less to stop that slime all over your rock. My nano has 25kg in Display & the rear chambers are also packed with LR rubble.

[JimGilbert]

OK update 13/11/11
Water Chemistry just before my fortnightly clean of filters and 10-15% water change
Phosphate 0.5
PH 7.8
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0
Salinity 1.024
Temp 80 F
Nitrate 30
Both the Regal Tank and the Coral Beauty are going today. That will leave me with a Clown at 1.5 inch, Chromis at 1.5 inch, a Wrasse at 2 inch, i assume my CUC's dont add to the loading so now my Nitrate should drop through the floor shouldnt it. I was lead to beleive i could have 1 inch of fish per 5 gallon, i have seen tanks my size with far more fish in, is it the type of fish and can i can some Blenny's or a couple more Clowns for example once the Nitrate is under control. I have left the filtration as is because of conflicting advise, the back of the tank has about 2-3 kilo of live rubble the full range of Juwel foam filters from course, fine, filter wool, nitrate and last carbon. I have also got the Aqua One CF 1000 running with a little rubble some ceramic and the foam in two trays, this with a very small skimmer, another filter with black balls in it that shots water out of the top and and light which does some steralising, now that has not been change, could it need a new bulb for the UV filter light.
I have bought a Reef Test kit which should be here next week so i can add some more readings
I will now reduce my lighting to 6 hours then, but i guess when i get corals it will need to go back up, and wont that reliven the Purple horror algae

[r60sgr]

As long as you leave foam in there you will have high nitrate. The choice of filtration is entirely yours - whatever works is the secret. The only way foam is any good in a marine tank (if you feel you need it for water polishing) is to have it easily accessible and rinse it in RO every week to firstly clean, obviously, and to wash out the nitrafying bacteria. That's why you are struggling with fish totals v's test reading for nitrate. Ask the people who have the tanks you refer to and see what filtration they use, that might help you if you feel advice is conflicting. Remember we all have our own ways of doing things cause it works for us - might not for you but keep plugging away it will come good when you find the recipe! lol Stewart

[Brian]

one of my tanks is a 2footx16" jewel i removed the hood and lighting as it was a fresh water tank i made up a new half top with 2 tcm l e d strips for lighting, its on the jewel stand and it stands in the front window, hence the half hood, i still use the original jewel sponge filter, and i have added a small circulation pump, have used black argonite mixed with sand pre packed. i have a orange tubastrea coral, a now really large green bubble coral, red finger sponge, quite a few pulse corals all around that have appeared on their own in the tank, green star polyps appeared on a small rock, 2 red flame scallops , red blood shrimp, green australian duncan, their is some red birdsnest algea appearing on one of the rocks near the front of the tank, solly crab, a big mass of green tinted star polyp growing on some tube debri, thats the only way i can explain it its very pretty at night,i have placed it in beetween the rocks at a part vertical angle, a small large group of large brown green mushrooms, a small green brain coral,sits in the substrate if i come down about 5am it has loads of fine tenticals all around it, A bunch of what i believe are yellow zoanthid polyps , i have a purple gorgonia that i bought from reef works on the internet it was aquarium grown and arrived about a year ago since it has doubled its size, also i have a red polyped gorgonia i have been struggling to keep its been in my tank around 7 months now and whilst its still alive not as full as it originally was. my no3 nitrate is around 25ppm, have to keep an eye on the ph it seems to fight with the calcium levels, i use a weekly supply of 5 gallons of pre mixed osmo water from the local shop, the 5 gallons is shared with a another large fish large invert nano tank, i will try and get some piccys for you when i learn how to use this site. Brian

[Brian]

just to managed how to work piccys here are some of my window reef, and non window fish large invert tank, sorry if i have put this in the wrong thread, still learning.1341713418

[ShyTalk]

Brian I think you should've started a thread of your own mate rather than adding yours into Jims thread, also use a paragraph or two, large solid blocks of text are hard to read/follow, ask one of the mods if they can move or remove yours from this thread and start one of your own mate, then you can keep adding to it if needed.

Jim...
I go back to my original post mate, all those different filter media you have will trap waste, waste decays in them and produces food for all kinds of algae, the food being nitrates, nitrites and phosphates, instead of boosting your water quality you're actually making it worse.

Let your live rock in the main tank do its job along with your cuc, so strip it all out, it really isn't helping you its making problems for you.
All you need is a sponge which you rinse well every week in your waste water...again to get rid of any debris...a chunk of filter floss...and a bag of carbon if you want.
So long as you aren't over feeding and you keep up with weekly water changes your chemistry will soon settle down.
'
Personally i'm no fan of l/r rubble in the rear compartments either, but i know many do use it, i just find it almost impossible to keep clean, your cuc will graze on the rock in the main tank, but detritus can soon build up on the rubble in the rear and can soon cause similar problems to yours.

I have a couple of API test kits i inherited, but i would recommend Salifert over them any day.

You need to be testing for, PH, S.G, Alk/Kh, Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate...and Calcium is useful too but not as essential.

Fine and dandy re keeping your filtration as it is, but be honest, it isn't going well for you is it? So time to try something else eh?
90% of nano owners run with little or nothing except their live rock, floss and carbon, if it works for us, it should work for you too.

[butterflyfish]

just to managed how to work piccys here are some of my window reef, and non window fish large invert tank, sorry if i have put this in the wrong thread, still learning.1341713418
Sry to OP for thread clutter but what size tank it looks a bit small for a tang.

[ShyTalk]

Sry to OP for thread clutter but what size tank it looks a bit small for a tang.

If you read back you'll see we already sorted that point.

[JimGilbert]

Tang is going today, Coral beauty tomorrow, will sort filter media out after they have gone, will get rid of the stuff in the back as suggest, have a little sponge in the external filter but it is mainly bio balls and ceramic tubes, shall l leave that connected. Have received my Reef test kit today so will get some readings mid week, how long should i leave it before i test again, couple of days ? week ? so i know things are improving. Seen some nice small bits of rock at my LFS so i may boost my live rock with some rubbly type stuff behind the main structure i have created to take the Coral, once we have the chemistry sorted of course.

[r60sgr]

I would test once a week and give each change you make time to settle down. Let us see what your test results are and we can offer advice from there. Stewart

[ShyTalk]

Tang is going today, Coral beauty tomorrow, will sort filter media out after they have gone, will get rid of the stuff in the back as suggest, have a little sponge in the external filter but it is mainly bio balls and ceramic tubes, shall l leave that connected. Have received my Reef test kit today so will get some readings mid week, how long should i leave it before i test again, couple of days ? week ? so i know things are improving. Seen some nice small bits of rock at my LFS so i may boost my live rock with some rubbly type stuff behind the main structure i have created to take the Coral, once we have the chemistry sorted of course. Damn thing, i just 30 mins typing out a really detailed reply then it vanishes on me when i got to post it??? So here's slimmed down reply for you Jim... Your live rock is all you need, get rid of anything else, all it takes is one clogged filter pad to cause you some real grief. Just stick a sponge and some filter floss in the back, change the floss weekly and rinse the sponge really well each week when you do your water change. They are only used to collect and waste or other crud and stop it getting into your pump and back into the tank, but you must make sure too much doesn't collect in them so weekly washes in the old tank water should be fine. The sponge will get colonised with the good bacteria that is found in your live rock so will help boost your filtration for you for free. Ceramic tubes etc aren't needed, live rock is all you need. Do weekly water tests and keep a record of them so you can see how things are going, i usually test each sunday before i do my water change. Use nitrates as your guide to how much water to change, if you test nitrates after a change and se a reading then change more water... i do around 15L in my nano, but every tank is different, more or less fish, live rock, feeding etc will all vary, don't get fixated on this mythical 10% as many do, yours may be more or less, your water readings will tell you if you're doing enough. If you haven't got one yet use a refractometer to check your sg, they're way better than swing arm type meters and much more accurate. Don't add a lot of new l/r at once, if you need some more add it a bit at a time leaving a week or two between to let it get colonised and start working properly. You may well find once all the extra filtration is added things may vary quite a bit at first as the bacteria in the live rock gets to work but it will soon stabilise and it should stay pretty contsant unless you change things like adding more fish or a fish dying or over feeding or something like that. Here's a chart or two to steer you in the right direction, just save the photo and print it out 13465 13466 13467 13468 1346913470 13471 13472 13473 Have read of the beginners articles on here re water chemistry, once you get your head around the nitrate cycle the rest will all start to make sense. All the best Gav Just remembered, when testing the ph...try to avoid adding buffers...they will boost ph temporarily but will throw other things out such as hardness kh/alk, stability is the key, better to have it a little low around 8, than keep adding buffers, drove me crazy at first but once i stopped adding buffers everything stayed much more stable.

[Cookie]

Shytalk hope you don't mind if i nab a print of them too.

Cheers
Simon

[ShyTalk]

Shytalk hope you don't mind if i nab a print of them too.

Cheers
Simon

Of course, feel free, I find them really useful so i thought others would as well, help yourself :-)

[JimGilbert]

Time for an update, Regal Tank went on Sunday 20th, Coral Beauty went 22nd and new test kit arrived so now i can get a few more readings
Dens 1023
pH 8.2
PO4 0.0
NH4 0.0
NO2 0.0
NO3 30
KH 17
Ca 560

Hope the reading will enable you to do a little more anaylsis and provide advise, the KH and Ca seem high, is this a result of the high nitrate.

I am on the Nitrate crusade and have taken 30% the Foam filtration out and will remove another 30% over the weekend and subsidise it with 1 kilo of live rubble from the LFS. Going to do a 25% water change this weekend as well to progress the Nitrate challange.

[ferrybridgemarine]

Hi try a product called "purigen",instead of carbon.Purigen is a polymer exchange resin beaded product in a micro mesh bag that can go anywhere were there is water flow it absorbs contaminants at a rate of over 500% more efficiently than carbon and unlike carbon it can't release contaminants back into the tank when full.The product is off white and turns chocolate colour when exhausted and the first thing you will see is improved clarity and it also removes organics just like a skimmer that is pretty useful in nano tanks.Works in freshwater and can be regenerated and saltwater too.(available from all good lfs doing seachem proucts incl ours)

[JimGilbert]

Thanks for that advice re Purigen, how much do you charge, might get time this weekend to come over and have a look, will it help the nitrate situation and the other high readings i am reporting.

Regards

Jim

[butterflyfish]

If you read back you'll see we already sorted that point.

I was talking about brian.