Tank problems

[richardp]

Hi does anyone have any ideas on my problem,

i have a 350 l tank running for 18 months, i had a regal tang which had small bouts of whitespot, he had a bad attack at the weekend, and has now passed. before he went one eye went very large. Since he went i have had a wrasse go, and now a puffer and damsel are suffering. i have changed around 80l of water and added API melaFix. water is 1.027 salt, high nitrate, ok nitrite ph of 8.2. low ammonia calcium around 460 and kh of 8. anyone have any ideas? they are struggling to swim, like a bladder issue

[michael.]

firstly welcome to the site it is great to have you aboard, essentially ammonia poisoning is more than likely the reason, or a long shot but possible is oxygen starvation, to add to the ammonia poisoning theory your params are a little out, nitrate although relitively harmless in moderate amounts can wear fish and corals down if it gets to excessive levels over a long period of time, also you calcium is a bit high which means your magnesium level is probably wrong, of course this won't hurt the fish, whats the temperature of the tank? and have you got any nitrite?, what total stock have you got?

[richardp]

thanks |Michael, im running a wet and dry eheim and a eheim canistrer , so know i will have higher levels of nitrate, nitrite is 0, temp 22, i have 3 green chromis, 1 domino, 1 humbug, 1 puffer, 2 clowns and 2 blue damsels, and a lobster. tghey all seem fine, dmoino is a little pale, 2 small coarls seen fine, im really confused, no red gills like you might expect with ammonia poison

[michael.]

the temperature is way too low, Id suggest 25, but a minimum of 24, whats the actual ammonia reading?

[richardp]

zero on an api dropper test, ill raise the temp, thx richard

[richardp]

ivegot alllights of to help reduce stress too

[michael.]

0, well thats strange, if it was corals dying Id suggest excessive phosphate levels, but with fish it is normally lack of oxygen or ammonia, anyhow the very best of luck richard, and a warm welcome to our site again, cheers


mike

[richardp]

ive been running phosphate remover to control hair algae, jbl phos ex ultra, do you think running an air[pump may help for the time being?

regards,

Richard

[michael.]

I have know of some phos removers that are aluminium based to cause havoc in the tank and make all soft corals close up for weeks, it won't hurt to get some oxygen in the tank, do you have a skimmer? this will produce 10 times the oxygen of a air pump, but thats better than nothing, your ph of 8.2 suggests good air though, unless your adding lime to the water somehow.

[richardp]

sKimmer is off as i have the melafix in, i ran it with meds in last night and had major overfoaming and a big puddle, i have been using the phos remover for a while and no issues, i have 2x koralia 3s pushing the water round too. Thx

[reefergeek]

Hi and welcome to Rc, Do the fish seem to be gasping for breath at all, I would get the kh up to 11 or 12 with the calcium that high, Even bring the salt level down to 1026 this may be the reason why the calcium's high. Also as Michael said bring the temp up to around 25-26

Do you run uv or ozone at all as these would suppress the parasites the only other option would be a qt tank


Most reef safe meds strip the tank of oxygen so i would strongly advise an airpump and in the sump if you have one

[michael.]

I don't know then Richard, hopefully one or two of the others will help you out, I can't think of anything else which will cause the problems your having, sorry fella.

kind regards


Mike

[richardp]

hi the fish were gasping, thoise that have died. The wrasse went and sat on the bottom and was gone in 24 hrs,i can add salifert buffer to raise the kh, and heating is rising. I run no uv or ozone, and have no qt tank. Thanks

Thanks for the help and advice Mike

[reefergeek]

How high are the nitrates ? I would think the regal set it off and because of poor water quality the fish are getting bacterial infections caused by the parasites entry and exit wounds and unable to fight it off, Its a ballache but would qt and use hypo soon as possible to avoid more deaths

Can use bicarbonate of soda to raise the alk much cheaper option, As the options are not available to you i would do as many water changes as possible to get the nitrates right down, Also step up the feeding with a good varied diet nori, flake, frozen this could help boost the immune system

Are all the other fish feeding ok ?

[michael.]

try to get your powerheads pointing at the surface right now to allow gases to escape and oxygen into the tank, have you got a lid on the tank?

[reefergeek]

Dont know what the other causes of fish gasping for breath the ones i know are ammonia and lack of oxygen

I would also take a sample of water to an lfs to get them to check it not saying your doing it wrong but a second set of eyes is good sometimes

[richardp]

there were no wound marks on the tang, other than the eye, can yhou tellme what hypo is? fish have been feeding well, powerheasds now up and no lids on, thx

[reefergeek]

Hypo is dropping the salt level down to around 1009 as parasites cant survive in it, I prefer that to copper treatments, You cant do hypo in a tank full of corals, invertebrates they will not survive

[richardp]

i cvould that, i have 45 l of ro water, that should dropit and get more tomorrow, will the fish be ok?

[michael.]

no don't do that yet, just take a breath and lets get to the bottom of what the problem is first, reefergeek was just informing you what hypo was, we need to identify the problem, then we can suggest a remedy.

[richardp]

well im all ears, thx for the advice

[michael.]

my gut instinct is poor water quality, an immediate water change with nutrient free quality water is essential.

[richardp]

if i hoover the gravel and sand will that remove the good bacteria? should i just taket the water straight from the tank|?

[richardp]

im pretty sure its ich, fish have gone grey before dying, still no red gills etc as per ammonia poisoning. i only have 2 fish left so have you any ideas what has to be done with tank and rock to eradicate parasites etc before i can think of starting again? Many thanks

[Gaters]

Welcome to the site, if it was c. irritans (ich) then you would definitely see the lesions on the dead fish. Has this come on very quickly? over the space of a couple of days? Most importantly, WHEN did you last put any new stock into your tank? How long has the tank been running?

A temperature of 22 and highish nitrAte won't kill your fish either. I have a feeling you could be experiencing 'velvet' possibly.

[richardp]

Hi, tank has been running for 18 months, last new stock was thye wrasse at least 6 weeks ago, i added 2kg of live rock and some live sand 4 weeks ago. The infection has come on really quick, ive lost a tank full in a week. they ve all been happy in 22 water, and as i said the canister filters have always lead to higher levels of nitrate. What needs to be done now ? best regards,

Richard

[Gaters]

Sorry to hear of the losses, i would bet my life you have experienced marine velvet-Amyloodinium ocellatum. Rapid breathing and quick death are classic signs. If you have lost all of your fish then you need to leave the tank empty of fish for 3 months minimum.

[reefergeek]

I am thinking the adding the 2kg of rock and especially the live sand started of another mini tank cycle, did you rinse the live sand at all ?

Why did you add the live sand, the normal substrate will become live in time and is a much cheaper way of doing it

External filters are fine to use as long as you dont use the bioballs or ceramic rings just use floss, carbon and a phosphate remover, as long as the filter is cleaned regular then nitrates will not be a problem

Also yes thank you gaters and michael i as not suggesting hypo yet was telling you what it involved its for a last resort method if all else fails

[richardp]

i thnk it must have been velvet as you say, those seem to be the symptoms, i have a lobster in there but we ll see how long he lasts as hees eaten some of the infected.

I didnt rinse the live sand as didnt want to destroy its goodness! i thought that may help to bring the nitrate and hair algae down, dont know if i can leave it running for 3 months for nothing, it may be on the ebay soon!

Thanks to all for your advice, just really devastated, i really miss my regal, she was a beauty!

best regards,

Richard

[reefergeek]

Once you have stock in the tank you shouldn't really be adding live rock and certainly not live sand, You still get die off causing a mini cycle so i would of expected to see slight ammonia and nitrite

There is another member on here going through the same its not good when it happens you just have to try to get thought it, For the hair algae you should of looked at the tubes, lighting time, feeding, adding more phos remover, If its still a problem test the salted your putting in the tank to see if its zero to start with and then look at the test kit to make sure its reading right

[Gaters]

Once you have stock in the tank you shouldn't really be adding live rock and certainly not live sand, You still get die off causing a mini cycle so i would of expected to see slight ammonia and nitrite

There is another member on here going through the same its not good when it happens you just have to try to get thought it, For the hair algae you should of looked at the tubes, lighting time, feeding, adding more phos remover, If its still a problem test the salted your putting in the tank to see if its zero to start with and then look at the test kit to make sure its reading right

Hate to contradict but 2kg of live rock in 350 litre tank won't cause a mini cycle-maybe possibly if the rock is uncured-same with live sand.

[reefergeek]

The live sand did when i made the mistake around 4 years ago ammonia went up and nitrite that was 1 bag in a 200 ltr tank

[Guest101]

The live sand did when i made the mistake around 4 years ago ammonia went up and nitrite that was 1 bag in a 200 ltr tank

it caused a few problems in my 6ft tank aswell that was 1 bag in 1000ltr system.

Dont know how they can say that the bacteria in it is good if you take a peice of live rock, put in a tank of water let it cool down and them leave it to stand in a warehouse/shop for months would you expect the rock to still be "live"

[Gaters]

The live sand did when i made the mistake around 4 years ago ammonia went up and nitrite that was 1 bag in a 200 ltr tank

But did that kill ALL your fish??

[richardp]

so is it likely the velvet was in the rock or sand?

[Guest101]

so is it likely the velvet was in the rock or sand?

More then likely it was on one of your fish already and deteriarating water quality (for whatever reason) has stressed the fish and lowered their immune system making them more susseptable to the disease and once the disease sets in it multiplys taking over the tank.

[richardp]

how long can a fish carry such diseases before they become an issue? id have thought they would have shown within a couple of weeks

[Gaters]

Once the parasite has built up its energy reserve sufficiently it drops off the host to form the tomont. The tomont lands on the sediment and begins to divide. After 48 to 96 hours (although it can take up to 20+ days) the tomont contains around 200 dinospores, increasing in size to around 1 mm. It then ruptures and releases the flagellated dinospores, which move upwards, attracted by light, and are ready to infect a fish. Dinospores can remain infective for up to 15 days, much longer than marine white spot, the disease it is most often confused with.

It's more likely your wrasse came in from the wild as a carrier and then the above happened.

How much live sand did you add to the tank?
I only speak from my experiences, i've added live sand to my 1000l and not had major issues enough to wipe out my fish. Same with live rock and i wouldn't begin to count the amount of times i've added rock etc over the years.

[reefergeek]

No because apart from that i did have good water quality and no regal tang, the way i am thinking his regal has w/s not a major case though his water quality is not the best then he adds the live sand makes the water quality even worse, the wounds on the fish catch a bacterial infection , Now when i did it i had 2 fish a gramma and a wrasse and none had any parasites at all, i would think if they did then they would of suffered, the nitrite came up on the third colour in on the chart, it was yet more rubbish advice from a crap lfs live and learn i did how ever take the top lid of the tank as soon as i found out and added the airstone whether that saved them or not who knows.
Just look at adams tank more or less the same thing when he brought his old water and the fish the flippin water is yellow and that was his tank water no wonder his fish deteriated so quick would think again bacterial infection due to poor water quality, but that was not all his fault as he inherited the problems when he bought all the set up

[richardp]

It was a caribsea bag, i think 10lb, cost £30, wish the shop guys had given me these ideas! T|he wrasse came from a shop thats provided most of my stock, and they only get through TMC which is close to us

[Macca]

if it was ammonia I would expect you to lose inverts too. Fishing gasping can be lack of oxygen but if you have water movement which i believe you have seems to point to gill damage (possibly velvet attack). If fish die within a day i would deffo not rule out velvet. Classic signs, not feeding. Gasping for air, fast gill beats, erratic behaviour followed by fish in zombie state.

[Macca]

ps the worst thing about velvet is on many cases it is virtually impossible to spot the parasites presence, You can only go by the symptoms as not all fish will show the classic gold dusting.

[Tangman]

Fish from TMC are good as there water is so sterile as it is blasted with Ozone and UV while they are in there tanks, its when they get to your tank that all the bad stuff happens like WS and Brookenela and Velvet. Twiggy

[Guest101]

Have you got any fish left? can you post some pics of them if you have

[reefergeek]

So if one person uses one supplier that gets the stock from tmc all the time and hes gone no where else you would expect not to get any problems with stock then

[richardp]

would a uv lamp have saved the fish from this?

[Guest101]

Fish from TMC are good as there water is so sterile as it is blasted with Ozone and UV while they are in there tanks, its when they get to your tank that all the bad stuff happens like WS and Brookenela and Velvet. Twiggy

But TMC and other importers turn their stock around so quick that parasite slip through

[Macca]

So if one person uses one supplier that gets the stock from tmc all the time and hes gone no where else you would expect not to get any problems with stock then

why? that does not make sence

[Macca]

But TMC and other importers turn their stock around so quick that parasite slip through

also parasite come in anything salty, it just takes a run down fish to complete the cycle continuously and then healthy fish can no longer fight the bigger invasion off.

[Gaters]

Richard, google marine velvet and look at the images-did your fish look similar to these when they died?

Please stop saying that Regal, or any Tang for that, can be infected and recover from c. irritans without medication. If your fish catch irritans and you don't medicate they WILL die regardless of how good or bad your water is and whether they are a tang or not. Any case of c. irritans is a major one.

Adams fish died from velvet too-you just have to look at the pictures of his Tennenti tang to see that.

Have you ever seen or tested the water these fish are shipped half way around the world in? They are shipped in a bag of pee and manage to survive.

and Richard ask Eric (Tangman) about TMC quarantine periods.

[Guest101]

also parasite come in anything salty, it just takes a run down fish to complete the cycle continuously and then healthy fish can no longer fight the bigger invasion off.

So is it a waste of time quarentining fish then, if we can add a coral and start a white spot epedemic?

[reefergeek]

If tmc is as good as eric said then every one who only use tmc for stock surely would not have any problems, tmc may treat the fish with ozone and uvs but i wouldnt think they would have the resources to qt the stock

Cant remember reading but did the fish rub against the rock or sand at all ?

[reefergeek]

It would happen a lot quicker if you have crap water quality

[Guest101]

Please stop saying that Regal, or any Tang for that, can be infected and recover from c. irritans without medication. If your fish catch irritans and you don't medicate they WILL die regardless of how good or bad your water is and whether they are a tang or not. Any case of c. irritans is a major one.



Sorry but thats the biggest load of **** I have ever read I had white spot 6 times in my 6ft tank all my tangs yellow and regals even my moorish idol had it everytime and not once did I loose a fish and not once did I put any medication in the tank all I did was made sure they where well fed and let their own immune system defeat the parasite.

You cant say that ever tang that get white spot will die, you have no evidence that that is true

[Gaters]

It would happen a lot quicker if you have crap water quality

The lobster would be the first to go though.

[Macca]

So is it a waste of time quarentining fish then, if we can add a coral and start a white spot epedemic?

you just increase the odds by not QT as the parasite lives on fish not corals but it does go through as swimming stage

[reefergeek]

I had it twice in the last year on my fish, when i moved the old 5ft tank in to the room, 3 fish had something dont know of any other disease that has small white spots and then left them for around 3 weeks and when we put them in the big tank had 4-5 fish with these dodgy white spots, Only started using the ozone again when i got the big tank up and running and never had uv

Know of other people as well who has had the same happen, A bloke in Durham who i got 80kg of live rock from he had 8 tangs 40 odd fish in total he mentioned every other month he had a break out, The lass in ripon who bought the £1000 tank got a regal it infected her other fish something is still in her tank as you can see white spots even in the fins dont say nothing to her though as she knows best

[Guest101]

you just increase the odds by not QT as the parasite lives on fish not corals but it does go through as swimming stage

didnt we have this debate a few years ago about whether or not it could live on the LR?

[Macca]

TANGS are fast swimming fish and thats why they are more prone to WS as its their mucus coat is thin. Please stay on topic and help fellow reefer.

[Gaters]

Sorry but thats the biggest load of **** I have ever read I had white spot 6 times in my 6ft tank all my tangs yellow and regals even my moorish idol had it everytime and not once did I loose a fish and not once did I put any medication in the tank all I did was made sure they where well fed and let their own immune system defeat the parasite.

You cant say that ever tang that get white spot will die, you have no evidence that that is true

John did you have the fish lab tested for c. irritans?? I'm not saying your fish didn't have 'white spots', mine get 'spots' occasionally. What i am saying is that very few fish build up effective immunity from this parasite-i can show you hundreds of valid scientific studies that show these facts-just google it.

[Macca]

didnt we have this debate a few years ago about whether or not it could live on the LR?

John, parasites go through a swimming stage hence why they go from fish to fish, they can lie dormant for 5 weeks.

[reefergeek]

Had a fair few of these debates my self, Some say regals carry it dormant then it breaks out when there stressed out Some say that cant happen dont think nothings 100% the thing that is true if they deteriorate they need treating

Is there any way when my regal next shows signs i can get it verified i would like to find out as i think it is as other fish get it yet only the bi blenny has been affected by rubbing against the sand before

[richardp]

i ve read that tyhe regal tang will get whitespot and get rid of it naturally through itself, is this a phallacy? one of the clowns looked like the velvet pics, yet wasnt completely covered ort as thick as the pics ive seen

[Macca]

John did you have the fish lab tested for c. irritans?? I'm not saying your fish didn't have 'white spots', mine get 'spots' occasionally. What i am saying is that very few fish build up effective immunity from this parasite-i can show you hundreds of valid scientific studies that show these facts-just google it.

please keep focussed on the reefers problem. We are going off track

[Macca]

i ve read that tyhe regal tang will get whitespot and get rid of it naturally through itself, is this a phallacy? one of the clowns looked like the velvet pics, yet wasnt completely covered ort as thick as the pics ive seen

Hi, they cant get rid of it naturally but can develop a temp immunity. The immunity wears off.

[Macca]

I hope you get to the bottom of your problem but please read into velvet and if you think its a strong possibility then please read up on its life cycle.

[Gaters]

Right i'm off to bed-

imo Richard your fish, as Adams, died from marine velvet.

[reefergeek]

Not all of adams died still got 4 here and they look fine :whistle: But still putting them through hypo, no velvet signs and no c.i signs

[Guest101]

John, parasites go through a swimming stage hence why they go from fish to fish, they can lie dormant for 5 weeks.

I know, some can lay dormant for even longer then that and some are photosythetic so can live even longer without a host.

[Macca]

i ve read that tyhe regal tang will get whitespot and get rid of it naturally through itself, is this a phallacy? one of the clowns looked like the velvet pics, yet wasnt completely covered ort as thick as the pics ive seen

velvet can kill a fish in 24 hours, a lot of the time there is very little evidence to see. On some fish a gold sheen can be seen when looking at the skin in a certain angle, but this is not always the case. Once the fish starts gasping (rapid gill movement) its gills / lungs are infested and death is soon.

[Guest101]

Not all of adams died still got 4 here and they look fine :whistle: But still putting them through hypo, no velvet signs and no c.i signs

Hypo doesnt kill velvet they can live in sg as low as 1.005 which is too low for other life.

[Macca]

I know, some can lay dormant for even longer then that and some are photosythetic so can live even longer without a host.

in this case, even the reefers low temp could have delayed the outbreak by slowing down the cycle.

[Guest101]

in this case, even the reefers low temp could have delayed the outbreak by slowing down the cycle.

Good point never thought of that.

Do you think that if he had left his tank "cold" then he would have had more time to find a cure? or at least identify the disease?

[reefergeek]

In that case then might as well get him to come and collect his fish as its pointless and just wasting my elec as its already been confirmed as velvet

[Macca]

Good point never thought of that.

Do you think that if he had left his tank "cold" then he would have had more time to find a cure? or at least identify the disease?

In theory I would guess yes but usually with velvet there is little time, once the fish shows signs then there is very little you can do. Apart from good water quality in say a copper environment there is little hope.

[Guest101]

In that case then might as well get him to come and collect his fish as its pointless and just wasting my elec as its already been confirmed as velvet

Have you read the article on the othUR forum? ill send you the link.

[reefergeek]

Hate that forum dont go near the place

[Guest101]

Hate that forum dont go near the place

I agree but the article is worth a read

[reefergeek]

The reef central one is better reluctantly had a read lol

[Guest101]

on here or US, didnt know we had an article section

[Macca]

In that case then might as well get him to come and collect his fish as its pointless and just wasting my elec as its already been confirmed as velvet

I take it this is regards to Adams fish? I would think if the fish are still alive and you are not using copper then either the fish did not have velvet or have not contracted it. Velvet has a very very high death rate and the few that survive have to be caught very early and treated for the parasite by means outside hypo.

[reefergeek]

So i have got his fish using my elec for fec all, would of thought some one could of pointed out before john that hypo doesnt work on velvet, i dont know do a favour and it backfires !

[Macca]

So i have got his fish using my elec for fec all, would of thought some one could of pointed out before john that hypo doesnt work on velvet, i dont know do a favour and it backfires !

Sorry bud I have never read Adams post (apart from 5 mins ago), I did not even know he had velvet. If I had I would have told you hypo does not work. If his fish are still alive then are you sure its velvet? It usually is a quick killer.

[reefergeek]

Yeah its all your fault macca, 3 tubs of salt will make it better lol

http://www.reefcentral.co.uk/showthread.php/23423-Upgrade-%29?p=218334#post218334



http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee58/adam-silver/DSC02380.jpg

[michael.]

on here or US, didnt know we had an article section

Hi-John,

we have over a thousand here for bedtime reading http://www.reefcentral.co.uk/links/index.php

[Macca]

Yeah its all your fault macca, 3 tubs of salt will make it better lol

http://www.reefcentral.co.uk/showthread.php/23423-Upgrade-%29?p=218334#post218334



http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee58/adam-silver/DSC02380.jpg

yep i remember this pic now, Velvet kills a fish usually within 24-48 hours, The fish usually cannot get enough oxygen as the parasite breaks down the gill tissue. Because of this sudden death the fish does not have time to loose weight drastically and it may appear if symptoms were not noticed that it has just died. That fish in that pic looks as if it has been eaten from the inside. That is one poorly fish, tang have a thin mucus membrane and although distressed fish can pick up parasites easily I would in my opinion look at other factors.

[Gaters]

James, Adams fish were already this thin before he added loads of new stock in the space of 4-6 week of resetting up. It was then that his problems started. At least that's how i read the thread. The existing fish were already malnourished so were ripe for infection/death. Imo that pic, ignoring the thinness, is classic velvet.

[Tangman]

I saw that fish the day after Adam got it and i passed a comment to him of how thin it was in fact all the Tangs he had were very thin and were ripping hell out of the Nori sheet he had put in for them. My opinion is these fish had not been fed a regular diet of algae and there imune system was low and with the move they got worse and probably got a bit of spot which broke the mucus layer letting in the bad water so giving them a bacterial infection which saw them off. When bacterial infection gets into a fish it can look the same as velvet as it sheds the skin of them and they soon die, as i found out when i had my big wipeout 3 years ago. Twiggy

[Guest101]

Hi-John,

we have over a thousand here for bedtime reading http://www.reefcentral.co.uk/links/index.php

Cheers Mike :thumbsup:

[Guest101]

James, Adams fish were already this thin before he added loads of new stock in the space of 4-6 week of resetting up. It was then that his problems started. At least that's how i read the thread. The existing fish were already malnourished so were ripe for infection/death. Imo that pic, ignoring the thinness, is classic velvet.

Take a closer look at the pics on his thread you will see that all his fish have nice round stomachs and look healthy apart from the vampire.

[davidmarine]

hey all can you help me plz iv got a problem with brine shrimps in my tank how can i get rid of them as thay are maslivly geting lots of them in my tank and starting to attack my turbo snails in my tank and dont know what to do plz get back to me a.s.a.p. plz thanx mate

[ShyTalk]

NO NEED TO SHOUT!

Blimey nearly blew me head off!!! :-)

Probably better off starting a new thread to be honest, but what you describe aren't brine shrimp from the sound of things...lots of things attack brine shrimp but not the other way around.
Try to get a photo and then we can see what you've got there.

[reefergeek]

God sake how many bloody times !!! Do not hijack other folks threads getting a little sick of it now budd i warned you before

[michael.]

As Kev our Moderator has mentioned you have had previous warnings, pull yourself together and stop this nonsence.