Sump / Refugium - need help!...

[CoralBananas]

Hi all, I am planning a new sump & refugium for my 500L. I’m going to have to have it made to measure to fit under 2 of the cabinets. The dimensions are 28"x14"x16" which works out to about 105L total volume. The plans so far are as follows:

Section 1 - 12"
To house the liverock and skimmer. I plan on filling half of this chamber with live rock piled on top of eachother covering the drain pipe to trap bubbles and placing the skimmer body and pump in the other half so as not to cover the pump for ease of access.

Section 2 - 10"
To house either a DSB (not sure how deep to go and which sand to use, I have aragonite in the main tank) or miracle mud (not sure how much I will need and it's benefits over a DSB) really not sure what's best to use here but I'm swaying towards the DSB. I'm planning on adding a few bits of live rock, some cheato, mangroves & maybe some turbos for glass algae control. Can I buy live amphipods and copepods to speed up the seeding process? I've heard brittle stars are good to go in there as well as bristle worms. I want as much diverse life as possible in there as it's going to be a half descent size. I know not to introduce anything predatory in there so what combinations work best? Also unsure of the light requirements for the cheato & mangroves.

Section 3 - 6"
To house the heater and return pump which will pump through my UV steriliser back to the main tank. (will this kill any life that makes it from the refugium to the return chamber?)

I hope I've painted a clear picture of my plans. The sump will flow from right to left as it will be located under the right side of my cabinet and my overflow box is on the right.


Any suggestions and all advice to make this work better welcome.

[Viking]

That last 6" section isn't going to be much use for the return pump. Once the pump starts up and begins to overfill the tank so the overflow box will work, then that section is going to empty before any water makes it back down the return to refill it. For a tank as big as 500ltrs you're going to need a bigger return pump section I reckon.

[r60sgr]

Hi, I have a Fit Fitration sump from my old 4 foot tank might want to consider. It was specially made to fit the cabinet and is 28"x12"x16" (LXDXH). It is the deluxe version I had made and cost £350 in 2007. Has skimmer, hydrocarbon and return sections with an oxygen tower and a pre filter. You could remove the hydrocarbon gauze and replace with DSB and refugium if you wanted. I can give you the powerhead that came with the oxygen tower too. Only problem is I'm in Glasgow but might well be worth a tank of petrol to collect. I'm not looking for a lot for it. It was the dogs b*****ks for me. I did offer it to someone on here a couple of weeks ago but they never go back to me. Stewart

[Howie]

Agree with Viking about the return section been a bit small also you will loose some size because of your dividers. I have no idea about the uv light but have a feeling it might wipe out any pods before they make it back into the main tank.
As for lighting the fuge part I just have a clip on light fitting with an energy saving daylight bulb 6400k and everything is growing like crazy

[CoralBananas]

That last 6" section isn't going to be much use for the return pump. Once the pump starts up and begins to overfill the tank so the overflow box will work, then that section is going to empty before any water makes it back down the return to refill it. For a tank as big as 500ltrs you're going to need a bigger return pump section I reckon.

that did cross my mind but i wasnt sure, thanks for clarifying that for me. design flaw number 1...

[CoralBananas]

Agree with Viking about the return section been a bit small also you will loose some size because of your dividers. I have no idea about the uv light but have a feeling it might wipe out any pods before they make it back into the main tank.
As for lighting the fuge part I just have a clip on light fitting with an energy saving daylight bulb 6400k and everything is growing like crazy

that also occured to me, design flaw number 2 lol ! will have to fit it on the drain into the sump then... thanks for the light suggestion.

[CoralBananas]

Hi, I have a Fit Fitration sump from my old 4 foot tank might want to consider. It was specially made to fit the cabinet and is 28"x12"x16" (LXDXH). It is the deluxe version I had made and cost £350 in 2007. Has skimmer, hydrocarbon and return sections with an oxygen tower and a pre filter. You could remove the hydrocarbon gauze and replace with DSB and refugium if you wanted. I can give you the powerhead that came with the oxygen tower too. Only problem is I'm in Glasgow but might well be worth a tank of petrol to collect. I'm not looking for a lot for it. It was the dogs b*****ks for me. I did offer it to someone on here a couple of weeks ago but they never go back to me. Stewart

Thats very good of you to offer mate, thank you. All sounds good, would you be able send me a picture at all please? I'll pm you with my email address and we can discuss this further.

[Viking]

Personally I'd not bother with the UV at all. Whether inline from sump to tank, or from tank to sump it still kills everything good as well as any bad stuff you might have. That's as long as you have the flow through it sufficiently slow so that it can do its job effectively. If your flow rate is too high then you might as well not have it there at all as it's ineffective.

[CoralBananas]

Personally I'd not bother with the UV at all. Whether inline from sump to tank, or from tank to sump it still kills everything good as well as any bad stuff you might have. That's as long as you have the flow through it sufficiently slow so that it can do its job effectively. If your flow rate is too high then you might as well not have it there at all as it's ineffective.

youre right it might be too much to mess about with, dont you find them beneficial then?

[Viking]

It's a Marmite thing really. People swear by them and others don't touch them, and a few in the middle run them occasionally. If they're sized correctly and the flow is correct then they sterilise the water fairly well. But they kill everything, good and bad. The argument for using them is generally "I use one and I've never had any disease." My argument is that since I started quarantining my new arrivals I've never had any disease either. and my tanks are not sterile from killing all the microfauna. Some people use them only when they introduce new stock to their tank, but I still prefer to stop disease getting into my tank rather than let it in and fight it when it's there.

It's always a good argument point when someone mentions UV units and their benefits, so pick your side and make your choice. :smilielol5:

[r60sgr]

Hi,

I've sent PM and e-mailed a picture. Let me know what you think.

Stewart

[CoralBananas]

It's a Marmite thing really. People swear by them and others don't touch them, and a few in the middle run them occasionally. If they're sized correctly and the flow is correct then they sterilise the water fairly well. But they kill everything, good and bad. The argument for using them is generally "I use one and I've never had any disease." My argument is that since I started quarantining my new arrivals I've never had any disease either. and my tanks are not sterile from killing all the microfauna. Some people use them only when they introduce new stock to their tank, but I still prefer to stop disease getting into my tank rather than let it in and fight it when it's there.

It's always a good argument point when someone mentions UV units and their benefits, so pick your side and make your choice. :smilielol5:

I love marmite - on toast with melted cheese mmm!! Anyway as far as this goes I know where I am now having read your reply. I've used one on the 2 setups I've had since I started the hobby 5 years ago (as I was advised it was essential) but I guess I never read into it properly (trusting the advice of my lfs) coz I've never tried to get the right flow through one lol !!! Just thought "as long as the water passes through, it'll do it's job" ugh ugh computer says no!! That would also explain why my tangs have had ich before when all else seemed fine and microfauna are in abundance in almost every crevice. I've stopped running the one on my display tank and will incorporate it into a new qt tank (with correct flow through it). That way I will prevent disease getting in like you advised and treat it before it gets into the main tank. Thanks mate that was very helpfull and has helped me make my mind up :hurray:

[CoralBananas]

For anyone that was following this, here is my final sump design. After weeks of research and forum bashing I think I've got the best design that I can accomodate in my cabinets. Thank you to all who replied and made suggestions. Please feel free to pitch in and make suggestions / point out errors / ask questions to make sense of it lol...

K

10547

[reefergeek]

Fancy doing a 47" one as well lol got to rig mine up soon

[CoralBananas]

Fancy doing a 47" one as well lol got to rig mine up soon

LOL! Cant even do mine, having it made! Checked out your sump build thread mate, nice tank. Which canister filters are you running at the mo then?

[cl0wn]

just wondering why your only having a small percentage of your flow going through the refugium, why not have the refugium before the return pump section, that way you have all of the flow going through the fuge and will tumble the cheato much better.

[reefergeek]

the canister filter is an 2000lph with uv was around £70 the trays are plenty big enough, the sump is a very remote one at the min so remote it is at the other side of the garden in the shed lol

stopped the sump thread as i was going to upgrade my tank to add a sump but got offered another tank bigger one so thought sod it go the whole hog

[CoralBananas]

just wondering why your only having a small percentage of your flow going through the refugium, why not have the refugium before the return pump section, that way you have all of the flow going through the fuge and will tumble the cheato much better.

Very valid point. That was my original plan however I've redrawn due to a few reasons such as larger water volume in the fuge and after discussing this on http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1899169

how important is it to tuble the cheato?

I should be able to get round the flow issue with a powerfull return pump and some valves thus getting sufficient flow to the sump... hopefully!

[CoralBananas]

the canister filter is an 2000lph with uv was around £70 the trays are plenty big enough, the sump is a very remote one at the min so remote it is at the other side of the garden in the shed lol

stopped the sump thread as i was going to upgrade my tank to add a sump but got offered another tank bigger one so thought sod it go the whole hog

Ahh, they do say bigger is better or was it that its more headache - I cant remember lol. All I know is the bruises on my armpits from reaching down to the bottom of my tank never hurt any less lol!

[reefergeek]

i can only just reach the bottom on the rena think its 24" deep have to stand on a chair so no chance with the new one thing its 30" deep

[CoralBananas]

i can only just reach the bottom on the rena think its 24" deep have to stand on a chair so no chance with the new one thing its 30" deep

yep, prepare for bruises my friend! get one of these instead of the chair - much safer to stand on. Makro sell them for £25 odd and its money well spent considering how much it makes life easier on a daily basis.

http://www.tooled-up.com/Product.asp?PID=164412&Referrer=froogle

[cl0wn]

you've got a bubble trap going into the return pump section, but not one going from fuge to return. essentially alll the good your doing with the bubble trap is gonna be undone with the overflow from the fuge. the tumble encourages faster growth with the cheato. it's a good design, i had something similar on my old tank, but think you could get away with simplifying it. skimmer section, fuge, return. i think if you use your design on the first post but move the bubble trap to the left so it's last before the return pump, you'll have cracked it, also the skimmer section doesn't need to be that big, just big enough for any future skimmer upgrades. what return pump are you planning on using?

[CoralBananas]

you've got a bubble trap going into the return pump section, but not one going from fuge to return. essentially alll the good your doing with the bubble trap is gonna be undone with the overflow from the fuge. the tumble encourages faster growth with the cheato. it's a good design, i had something similar on my old tank, but think you could get away with simplifying it. skimmer section, fuge, return. i think if you use your design on the first post but move the bubble trap to the left so it's last before the return pump, you'll have cracked it, also the skimmer section doesn't need to be that big, just big enough for any future skimmer upgrades. what return pump are you planning on using?

oh man now i'm in a pickle again lol! valid point again tho, cant argue that. ive designed the skimmer section to be big enough for the one that I have, its a V2 skim 1500. i havent got a clue on return pumps, my tank isnt drilled, i bought an overwflow box which isnt deep enough in the tank (might drill holes in it but thats probably asking for trouble) and now im dizzy, back to square 1 lol!

[cl0wn]

i would get the tank drilled. go for a return pump like 3000lph (the newjet's are good and are adjustable). tee'ing off is just wasteing a percentage of the pump's capacity which you could use for your uv. have the full flow going through the fuge. JMHO.

[cl0wn]

oh, and think about upgrading the v2. sorry but they're not great.

[CoralBananas]

i would get the tank drilled. go for a return pump like 3000lph (the newjet's are good and are adjustable). tee'ing off is just wasteing a percentage of the pump's capacity which you could use for your uv. have the full flow going through the fuge. JMHO.

the thing is its not a new tank, its full and been running and full of livestock. i know drilling whilst running is possible but i cant take such a risk as i dont have a back up tank or the balls to do it tbh! i will redesign but no uv.

i know the v2's are budget but its ok at the mo as a hang on but i will upgrade to a sump intended skimmer soon as i have it up and running (10" section plenty in your opinion?), what brand would you recommend please?

[cl0wn]

what size is the display tank?

[CoralBananas]

what size is the display tank?

500 Litres...

[Tangman]

Get a S/H Deltec APF600 or one of the new Bubble Magus ones some of our sponsors stock them. Twiggy

[CoralBananas]

Get a S/H Deltec APF600 or one of the new Bubble Magus ones some of our sponsors stock them. Twiggy

I was thinking of the one ktnch had on this thread. http://www.reefcentral.co.uk/showthread.php/21046-New-sump-build-to-my-5ft-tank?p=199609#post199609
its within my budget of £150 on ebay and looks descent. can you can recommend a better one for a similar price?

[CoralBananas]

does anyone have experience with that particular skimmer for some feedback?

[cl0wn]

there was a turboflotor shorty in the classifieds that was a bargain.

[cl0wn]

hmmm second thought it's only rates for 500l

http://www.reefcentral.co.uk/showthread.php/20553-Aqua-Medic-Shorty-Skimmer-with-Oceanrunner-OR3500-Pump?highlight=shorty

[CoralBananas]

hmmm second thought it's only rates for 500l

http://www.reefcentral.co.uk/showthread.php/20553-Aqua-Medic-Shorty-Skimmer-with-Oceanrunner-OR3500-Pump?highlight=shorty


The one I was looking at was rated for 600L. I know as a general rule the bigger the skimmer rating the better, but I'm on a budget so what do you reckon is the minimum rating I should aim for on a 500L tank thats currently low stocked? (hoping to fill it up gradually once the sump goes in) The V2 im running at the mo is rated upto 1500L.

I should mention at this point that the sump construction has seized until I get a descent skimmer and work out chamber dimensions and optimal baffle height accordingly.

By the way, thanks for the continued input cl0wn.

[cl0wn]

skimmer all depends on your budget? i would be looking at bubblemaster, bubble magus.

no probs btw.

[reefergeek]

Just about to use an atb cone copy does up to 600lts was £150 pm if you want details

[CoralBananas]

skimmer all depends on your budget? i would be looking at bubblemaster, bubble magus.

no probs btw.

I can see how it might have sounded like that, what I meant was I want to get the best skimmer I can within my budget but I will stretch if need be.

[CoralBananas]

Just about to use an atb cone copy does up to 600lts was £150 pm if you want details




Thanks for that, looks good. Has anyone here got a cone skimmer of any brand to chime in on their performance?