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View Full Version : Here's some facts about c. irritans (marine whitespot)



Gaters
09-28-2009, 09:08 AM
Here's a little light reading regarding c.irritans and the numerous myths surounding the parasite. If your fish develop 'white spots' have a good read of this and it may answer some of your fears.:D:D:D Particularly the 'myths' below:

http://atj.net.au/marineaquaria/marineich.html

Correcting Myths About Marine "Ich"

Marine "Ich" is generally misunderstood by aquarists. Many myths that abound about its causes, prevention and treatment.

Can cleaner wrasses control "Ich"?

Many aquarists regard common cleaner wrasses, Labroides dimidiatus, as effective agents for the control and treatment of marine "Ich". While this would be a desirable situation, it is unfortunately not true. Grutter (2000) showed that L. dimidiatus feeds mainly on the larvae of gnatid isopods throughout its life, and C. irritans theronts were never found in it's diet. Fish remain infected with theronts despite the presence of cleaner wrasse, and even the cleaner wrasse may become infected (personal observation).

Are freshwater dips effective?

Freshwater dips are generally ineffective in the treatment of marine "Ich" infestations. Trophonts burrow deeply into the epithelium where they are generally protected from external influences. Colorni (1985) found that even after 18 hours in freshwater, infected fish still have trophonts attached in the same positions as they had held before the freshwater treatment. The trophonts later detached and completed their life cycle as normal.
Trophonts penetrate the epithelium which causes a loss in osmoregulatory capability. Infected fish are less able to cope with a sudden and drastic change in the ionic concentration of their environment. This is likely to cause further stress to the fish which will impair their ability to acquire immunity to the parasite.

Does a specific gravity of 1.017 prevent outbreaks?

A specific gravity of 1.017 is not effective in controlling outbreaks of marine "Ich" as has been claimed by some authors (e.g. Delbeek and Sprung, 1994). Colorni (1985) found that tomonts could survive at salinities as low as 15 ppt (specific gravity ~1.011 d20/20). Further, a specific gravity of 1.017 is far too low for most invertebrates and the long term effect on fish is unknown.

Is "Ich" always present in our aquaria?

There is a widely held belief in the marine aquarium hobby that "Ich" is always present in our aquaria and this belief is often repeated on marine bulletin boards. There is much information in the scientific literature that contradicts this belief.
C. irritans is an obligate parasite (Burgess and Matthews, 1994; Dickerson and Dawe, 1995; Yoshinaga and Dickerson, 1994). Obligate means the parasite can not survive without infecting its host, in this case, fish. Theronts have been shown to die if a suitable host is not found within the required time. Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) found that few theronts (0.34%) were viable 12.5 hours after excystment and Burgess and Matthews (1994) found that no theronts were viable 18 hours after excystment. Colorni (1985) found that some excysted tomites (=theronts) were observed to be moving weekly after 48 hours. While the life span of the theronts appears variable, it is limited and all will die without finding a suitable host.
If an aquarium has no fish in it, and there are no additions of fish, or anything else that could be carrying trophonts, tomonts, tomites or theronts for a period of 6 weeks or longer, all parasites will have died. An aquarium such as this is an obvious exception to "Ich" always being present.
Many fish collected for marine aquariums will not be carrying "Ich". Incidence of C. irritans in wild fish varies widely and may be geographically related. Some authors have found few infected fish, if any, in the areas they have examined (Puerto Rico: Bunkley-Williams and Williams, 1994; southern California: Wilkie and Gordin, 1969) . Others have found that low levels of infection are not uncommon (e.g. southern Queensland; Diggles and Lester, 1996c). Keeping multiple fish in holding tanks and at aquarium stores increases the chances of a fish carrying "Ich" parasites, but it is still possible to acquire a fish that is not infected with "Ich".
If new fish are quarantined for at least 6 weeks, any parasites on the fish will have gone through a number of life cycles increasing the number of parasites present. In the majority of cases, the increase in parasite numbers will result in full blown infection and fish can be treated to remove the parasites. Hyposalinity has been demonstrated to break the life cycle of "Ich" (Cheung et al. 1979; Colorni, 1985) and fish correctly treated with hyposalinity will be free from "Ich". Any fish that do not show signs of infection after 6 weeks are very unlikely to be carrying any parasites.
If fish that are free from "Ich" (either because they were not originally infected or because they have been treated with hyposalinity) are added to an aquarium that is free from "Ich", the aquarium will stay free from "Ich" and be another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.
The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present.
Whilst "Ich" may be present in some aquaria, it is certainly not present in all aquaria. Through careful quarantining and treatment, it is very much possible to establish and maintain an "Ich" free aquarium.



Does stress cause "Ich"?

Stress and poor water conditions do not cause marine "Ich", although they will lower a fish's resistance to infection and impair their immune system. If C. irritans is not present in a tank, it doesn't matter what how stressed a fish may be, it cannot get infected. In a tank where parasites are present, stressed fish are more likely to show signs of "Ich" before more healthy fish, but the healthy fish are just as likely to become infected as the numbers of parasites increase. Those fish species that are less susceptible to "Ich" or those individuals that have an acquired immunity, may show no signs and may not get infected.

Can "Ich" be introduced with natural seawater?

One common argument against the use of natural seawater is the possibility of the introduction of parasites. While it is theoretically possible to introduce C. irritans, it is practically very unlikely owing to the nature of the life cycle of the parasite.
C. irritans spends very little time in the water column. After dropping off the host fish, trophonts head straight to the substrate to reproduce. This may take as little as 30 minutes but could extend to 24 hours (Cheung et al., 1979). Burgess and Matthews (1994b) found that significantly more trophonts left their host during darkness while fish are resting. This would greatly decrease the chances of trophonts being swept away from the substrate. These two factors combined almost rule out the possibility of trophonts being collected with natural seawater.
Excystment of theronts from tomonts also happens at night (Burgess and Matthews (1994b) and as theronts are only viable for a few hours, the chances of collecting theronts is low and those collected will most likely die before use in an aquarium.

TerraC
09-28-2009, 09:40 AM
some very good reading.

not saying anything is wrong here but dont you think it's about time some of these scientists updated their data and reasearch? 1994 studys.. 15years ago. With the advances in the hobby etc.. How many people were even bothering with skimmers 15 years ago?

If whitespot cannot be ever present in our tanks. How come a tank can show no signs whatsoever of any infection with whitespot having not added any new livestock for months then suddenly have an outbreak? Wrong whitespot? mis-identified parasite? mutated parasite? I think that may be the problem we have in some cases, indeed c. irritans if you have it can be a very nasty parasite gradually getting worse and killing inhabitants, but there are some "white spot"'s that just vanish (forever and not just life cycle) surely if everything was as the scientists said whitespot once you have it would gradually wipe out all your livestock. ?? Can there be more than one "white spot"?

I think there's still too many things in the ocean we know little about, definitely parasites being one of them :D

cl0wn
09-28-2009, 01:05 PM
nice one neil, well found, will sticky this.

Gaters
09-28-2009, 08:15 PM
nice one neil, well found, will sticky this.

That'd be great:D

Craig Robinson
09-28-2009, 09:20 PM
Sorry but I don't agree with a lot of that.

I believe that it is almost impossible to keep whitespot out of the tank without stringent quarantine of corals, fish, rock and inverts.

Once it is in the tank it will always be present and will break out when fish are stressed or injured.

Mostly I have found it clears up as long as the fish are feeding by keeping stress to a minimum.

Gaters
09-28-2009, 09:32 PM
Sorry but I don't agree with a lot of that.

I believe that it is almost impossible to keep whitespot out of the tank without stringent quarantine of corals, fish, rock and inverts.

Once it is in the tank it will always be present and will break out when fish are stressed or injured.

Mostly I have found it clears up as long as the fish are feeding by keeping stress to a minimum.

FACT: c. irritans WILL NOT simply 'clear up'-if your white spots did clear then it wasn't c.irritans-unless your fish have developed immunity through infection-cure, re-infection-cure and so on.

TerraC
09-29-2009, 06:48 AM
Agree'd.. There needs to be new study into what these new "white spot" parasites are. Are they new completely different parasites that act like irritans? are they mutated irritans? or have the scientists got it wrong (wouldnt be the first time)..

to say every "white spot" outbreak is irritans and there are no other "white spot"'s is a little naive. but then again what could we expect from closed minded - it's not had a 10yr study done on it so it doesnt exist - scientists... :D:D

Craig Robinson
09-29-2009, 07:34 AM
All I know is that I have seen and read of dozens of cases of whitespot (maybe mis-identified) that has cleared up without any intervention.


When I added my last tang to the tank the stress of the move and the power struggle caused the fish to break out in white spots and they cleared up after a week and have not returned. This was 7 months ago. :)

If this is not whitespot maybe you can tell me what it was?

It is my belief that there is a background source of white spot (cryptocryon irritans) in most tanks and that it shows itself when a fish is stressed.
This is because stress causes a raise of cortisone and adrenaline in the fish' blood.

Excess adrenalin can cause an increase in heart rate and respiration which in turn can cause a fishes blood to go acidic.

Excess cortisone reduces a fishes ability to make white blood cells (the disease fighting cells)

These two symptoms seriously reduce the ability of fish to fight off disease and the white spot breaks out.

White spot or marine ICH should not to be confused with velvet disease (Amyloodinium) which is a far greater killer of marine fish and needs to be treated.

Thats my 2p worth.
Others will surely disagree but that is the way of the world and it would be boring if we all thought alike.

Gaters
09-29-2009, 07:42 AM
Agree'd.. There needs to be new study into what these new "white spot" parasites are. Are they new completely different parasites that act like irritans? are they mutated irritans? or have the scientists got it wrong (wouldnt be the first time)..

to say every "white spot" outbreak is irritans and there are no other "white spot"'s is a little naive. but then again what could we expect from closed minded - it's not had a 10yr study done on it so it doesnt exist - scientists... :D:D

I agree with that, and was having the same conversation with Macca the other week.It's quite obvious that there are 'other things'-shall we say that are obviously not c. irritans as is known. So, the main reason for me putting this info up was to aid new reefers should their fish suddenly come out in a few lesions. It seems of late that as soon as anybody says my fish has spots then they are being told-mainly by lfs-to buy this cure and that cure copper included. Now you know as well as i do that not all outbreaks are c. irritans otherwise we would lose all fish. In fact a lot of the time the outbreak will completely go within a few days of it's own accord without using chemicals or more stressors. Now, i got my first marine tank 25+ years ago and still wouldn't be able to tell anybody how to dose copper etc properly-so how easy is it for newbies to get it completely wrong when maybe they didn't actually need it in the first place;)

TerraC
09-29-2009, 08:42 AM
So, the main reason for me putting this info up was to aid new reefers should their fish suddenly come out in a few lesions. It seems of late that as soon as anybody says my fish has spots then they are being told-mainly by lfs-to buy this cure and that cure copper included. Now you know as well as i do that not all outbreaks are c. irritans otherwise we would lose all fish. In fact a lot of the time the outbreak will completely go within a few days of it's own accord without using chemicals or more stressors. Now, i got my first marine tank 25+ years ago and still wouldn't be able to tell anybody how to dose copper etc properly-so how easy is it for newbies to get it completely wrong when maybe they didn't actually need it in the first place;)

the only problem I see with this is the info just tells you about 1 possible white spot disease and nothing else. and doesnt even state anything they can do against it. I'm not knocking it, it's good information and a helpful post for newbies but I feel it needs clarifying a little bit before it can be held up as a guide.

Most newbies want to know 1. what the fish has got.. This states irritans and does not mention anything else at all could be possible. and 2. How to treat.. this doesnt give any treatment methods it just states a couple of things that dont work. So the newbie then goes off and gets a remedy or a copper treatment from their LFS who rubs his hands at a nice sale? they chuck any old "remedy" in or even do a little rain dance and miraculously they've discovered a "cure" for whitespot.. everyone does a little rain dance (or doses garlic or something ;) ) and there we have it, a word of mouth cure-all for white spot. When in fact it's probably not irritans anyway and it's cleared up of it's own accord or that particular remedy does in fact work against mysery white spot X ...

What it should probably state is that this is just one of a possible gawd knows how many unidentified parasites that make your fish come out in spots and the scientists that ratify these things are either too lazy or closed minded to accept that either their 15yr old findings are wrong/outdated or maybe busy with other projects.

Once again not knocking it I think it's a good sticky but as a newbie guide I think we need to add something.

Gaters
09-29-2009, 09:00 AM
the only problem I see with this is the info just tells you about 1 possible white spot disease and nothing else. and doesnt even state anything they can do against it. I'm not knocking it, it's good information and a helpful post for newbies but I feel it needs clarifying a little bit before it can be held up as a guide.

Most newbies want to know 1. what the fish has got.. This states irritans and does not mention anything else at all could be possible. and 2. How to treat.. this doesnt give any treatment methods it just states a couple of things that dont work. So the newbie then goes off and gets a remedy or a copper treatment from their LFS who rubs his hands at a nice sale? they chuck any old "remedy" in or even do a little rain dance and miraculously they've discovered a "cure" for whitespot.. everyone does a little rain dance (or doses garlic or something ;) ) and there we have it, a word of mouth cure-all for white spot. When in fact it's probably not irritans anyway and it's cleared up of it's own accord or that particular remedy does in fact work against mysery white spot X ...

What it should probably state is that this is just one of a possible gawd knows how many unidentified parasites that make your fish come out in spots and the scientists that ratify these things are either too lazy or closed minded to accept that either their 15yr old findings are wrong/outdated or maybe busy with other projects.

Once again not knocking it I think it's a good sticky but as a newbie guide I think we need to add something.

If you follow the link it tells all about irritans-inc treatment etc. These were just the myths i picked out:D

Gaters
09-29-2009, 09:17 AM
All I know is that I have seen and read of dozens of cases of whitespot (maybe mis-identified) that has cleared up without any intervention.


When I added my last tang to the tank the stress of the move and the power struggle caused the fish to break out in white spots and they cleared up after a week and have not returned. This was 7 months ago. :)

If this is not whitespot maybe you can tell me what it was?

It is my belief that there is a background source of white spot (cryptocryon irritans) in most tanks and that it shows itself when a fish is stressed.
This is because stress causes a raise of cortisone and adrenaline in the fish' blood.

Excess adrenalin can cause an increase in heart rate and respiration which in turn can cause a fishes blood to go acidic.

Excess cortisone reduces a fishes ability to make white blood cells (the disease fighting cells)

These two symptoms seriously reduce the ability of fish to fight off disease and the white spot breaks out.

White spot or marine ICH should not to be confused with velvet disease (Amyloodinium) which is a far greater killer of marine fish and needs to be treated.

Thats my 2p worth.
Others will surely disagree but that is the way of the world and it would be boring if we all thought alike.

Marine whitespot as we know it is c. irritans-there is NO back ground source of c. irritans it simply can not be. It IS a parasite which lives on fish, multiplies and will not simply go away-FACT. This is exactly what i am trying to get across, the spots that we all see on our tangs can NOT be c. irritans as we know it because it would not go away. If i medicated my tank every time my regal or vampire tang came out in white spots i'm sure all my fish would be dead through stress. All i'm trying to get across is the fact that most cases of white spots are not c.irritans and don't need the aggressive treament c.irritans requires. In fact the best way to treat non irritans is to feed high quality food little and often and keep stressors to a minimum....and fish don't have adrenal glands;)

Craig Robinson
09-29-2009, 09:29 AM
Does anyone know what it is then?

Do we have a way to tell the difference between this and C.irritans?

That's ideally what people need to know.

This is an open question.
Obviously I don't expect an answer but people need to be aware that white spot as most people know it (whatever that may be scientifically) tends to go away with good feeding and no stress.

By the way I never said fish had an adrenal gland.
In fish the anterior kidney produces the chloramine hormones including adrenaline. ;)


http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KUs_aHoW86oC&lpg=PA47&ots=iBdhT3qm9S&dq=adrenaline%20in%20marine%20fish&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q=adrenaline%20in%20marine%20fish&f=false

TerraC
09-29-2009, 10:19 AM
Marine whitespot as we know it is c. irritans-there is NO back ground source of c. irritans it simply can not be. It IS a parasite which lives on fish, multiplies and will not simply go away-FACT. This is exactly what i am trying to get across, the spots that we all see on our tangs can NOT be c. irritans as we know it because it would not go away. If i medicated my tank every time my regal or vampire tang came out in white spots i'm sure all my fish would be dead through stress. All i'm trying to get across is the fact that most cases of white spots are not c.irritans and don't need the aggressive treament c.irritans requires. In fact the best way to treat non irritans is to feed high quality food little and often and keep stressors to a minimum....and fish don't have adrenal glands;)

The point i'm trying to get across is it's stickied as a "marine whitespot" information point. It does not mention anywhere that there is more than one marine whitespot.

If we are going to sticky it then it needs to be newbie proof. at the moment said newbie notices white spots on their fish, they come online check in the diseases section and it's stating "YOU HAVE IRRITANS THERE IS NOTHING ELSE"...

As I said it's great info, it just needs a little editing. "One particular marine fish parasitic infection that causes white spots is: blahh.. " There are a number of as yet un-identified problems that show themselves as white spots on your fish and they are for the most part benign and will disappear within a few days.

IE: If your fish are very badly infected or if after 14days the problem gets worse you may be looking at irritans. If it's gone away completely then you probably were'nt :)

michael.
09-29-2009, 12:35 PM
heres another article posted in a library i have access to and from a buddy of mine on wet web, there are lots of facts and fictions i suppose with itch, i have another 5-6 articles as well if you want to see them, i especially like the bit about the survival time without a host, interesting

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

michael.
09-29-2009, 12:59 PM
another couple of articles from steven pro

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php

TerraC
09-29-2009, 01:16 PM
heres another article posted in a library i have access to and from a buddy of mine on wet web, there are lots of facts and fictions i suppose with itch, i have another 5-6 articles as well if you want to see them, i especially like the bit about the survival time without a host, interesting

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

very interesting reading. agree, interesting bits about the "rest period".. and the bit about having a direct life cycle and not needing a host to complete it's life cycle, then surely if this is true it matters not how long you leave a tank fallow surely? It'll complete it's cycle regardless then re-infect the fish at a later date?

It's interesting that even the "experts" are in confusion as to what they believe works and doesnt work. Re: freshwater dips...

Gaters
09-29-2009, 05:14 PM
heres another article posted in a library i have access to and from a buddy of mine on wet web, there are lots of facts and fictions i suppose with itch, i have another 5-6 articles as well if you want to see them, i especially like the bit about the survival time without a host, interesting

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

Bob Fenner certainly knows what he's talking about-you should get him to join RC:D

michael.
09-29-2009, 05:33 PM
i dont know bob, that came out wrong, i know adam jackson and scott vallembois from wwm, adam supplied the link i posted about itch, he has supplied a lot of material courtesy of wwm for the library in question, i suspect bobs too busy snorkelling in hawaii to browse rc :)