Additions to keep paras in check

[MR Teee]

I've seen a few times in LFS etc all the various additions you can purchase for raising Alk, Mg, Cal. Alot of them are not cheap, and for new people coming into the hobby can become confusing which one to buy.

Just thought I would do a very brief guide for those people who are after some addition a little cheaper or may find it difficult to get to a fish shop.

So the things I measure in my tank at 1 year old are - Nitrate, PH, Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium and of course Temperature. It is the 3 in the middle that often require tweaking to get them in their balance Near Sea Water (NSW) concentrations.

Some brief guidelines are, if possible aim to have all three on or around the following levels.

Alkalinity - 2.5 - 4 meq/L or 7 - 11 dKH
Calcium - 380 – 450 ppm
Magnesium - 1250-1350 ppm

If they are not at these levels, you may want to conider adding some chemicals to your tank to bring them back up to NSW.

Alkalinity

Firstly establish what units your test kit measures this in, as they are different values depending on dKH or meq/L.

The chemical used to raise alkalinity is Sodium BiCarbonate. More commonly known as baking soda.

Simply add to your aqaurium using the following calculator to determine quantities.

http://reef.diesyst.com/

You can buy small quantities of baking soda from any supermarket. Baking POWDER is different and requires a different dosing regime. (also shown in the above calculator).

Larger quantites can be bought from Laboratry chemical suppliers. I can't put a link up as they are not sponsors, but you can always PM me:rolleyes: .

Calcium

If you have low calcium you can also get cheap additives to raise the levels.

The stuff you are after is Calcium Chloride or alternatively Calcium Chloride DiHydrate. The second being Calcium Chloride and water!

Again the calculator linked above will show how much to add to raise the calcium by a certain level.

Magnesium

Magnesium can also be raised without resorting to expensive chemicals.

For an easy one of fix of a low level, I would use Magnesium Sulphate. This is more commonly known as Epsom Salts and is usually sold in chemists for constipation!.
Again levels are in the calculator.

For longer terms Epsom salts will begin to knock the ionic balance of the water away from NSW.

To combat this you mix Magnesium Chloride with Magnesium Sulphate in a ratio of approx 9:1 Chloride:Sulphate.



I would avoid trying to raise only one of the above parameters in isolation as it can proove to be very difficult. Consider them as a threesome and ensure that all 3 are in balance.
Regular water changes should (providing the salt is good) keep you very close to these levels.

P.S another calculator to use is on the following site:-

http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/index.htm?http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/cacalc.htm

Hope that helps somebody.

[Tetley]

I've seen a few times in LFS etc all the various additions you can purchase for raising Alk, Mg, Cal. Alot of them are not cheap, and for new people coming into the hobby can become confusing which one to buy.

Just thought I would do a very brief guide for those people who are after some addition a little cheaper or may find it difficult to get to a fish shop.

So the things I measure in my tank at 1 year old are - Nitrate, PH, Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium and of course Temperature. It is the 3 in the middle that often require tweaking to get them in their balance Near Sea Water (NSW) concentrations.

Some brief guidelines are, if possible aim to have all three on or around the following levels.

Alkalinity - 2.5 - 4 meq/L or 7 - 11 dKH
Calcium - 380 – 450 ppm
Magnesium - 1250-1350 ppm

If they are not at these levels, you may want to conider adding some chemicals to your tank to bring them back up to NSW.

Alkalinity

Firstly establish what units your test kit measures this in, as they are different values depending on dKH or meq/L.

The chemical used to raise alkalinity is Sodium BiCarbonate. More commonly known as baking soda.

Simply add to your aqaurium using the following calculator to determine quantities.

http://reef.diesyst.com/

You can buy small quantities of baking soda from any supermarket. Baking POWDER is different and requires a different dosing regime. (also shown in the above calculator).

Larger quantites can be bought from Laboratry chemical suppliers. I can't put a link up as they are not sponsors, but you can always PM me:rolleyes: .

Calcium

If you have low calcium you can also get cheap additives to raise the levels.

The stuff you are after is Calcium Chloride or alternatively Calcium Chloride DiHydrate. The second being Calcium Chloride and water!

Again the calculator linked above will show how much to add to raise the calcium by a certain level.

Magnesium

Magnesium can also be raised without resorting to expensive chemicals.

For an easy one of fix of a low level, I would use Magnesium Sulphate. This is more commonly known as Epsom Salts and is usually sold in chemists for constipation!.
Again levels are in the calculator.

For longer terms Epsom salts will begin to knock the ionic balance of the water away from NSW.

To combat this you mix Magnesium Chloride with Magnesium Sulphate in a ratio of approx 9:1 Chloride:Sulphate.



I would avoid trying to raise only one of the above parameters in isolation as it can proove to be very difficult. Consider them as a threesome and ensure that all 3 are in balance.
Regular water changes should (providing the salt is good) keep you very close to these levels.

P.S another calculator to use is on the following site:-

http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/index.htm?http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/cacalc.htm

Hope that helps somebody.


Thanks Adam,

Just one small query, I thought 1st get Mg right THEN Tackle others :confused:

[MR Teee]

Yeah technically speaking.

I was hinting at getting all of the chemicals for all 3 and testing for all 3 at the beginning.

You are quite right though Mg levels should be raised first as it has an effect on the other 2.

[Macca]

Great advice, what we want from the forum.

James

[reefbloke]

Just to add to the discussion.
I use Sodium bicarb to raise/maintain Alkalinity but if you want to shift Alk by a large amount id suggest baking the Sodium bicarb first.You can do this by spreading out on a baking tray and baking for half an hour at 450f or so.
The reason for doing this is that Sodium bicarb( NaHCO3) will increase the bicarbonate to carbonate levels initially and will suppress the PH,if using a little at a time this shouldn't be a prob but trying to increase a very low Alk with it quickly will have this effect.Good water movement at the water surface will help offset this as the water will eventually give up the excess CO2 when the PH drops and the bicarbonate/carbonates will eventually balance again.Trouble is this will happen quite slowly compared to the shift in PH caused by the Sodium Bicarb so you will be stuck with a lower than average Ph before this situation resolves.
When baked it will convert the Sodium bicarb to Na2CO3,this will now have the effect of raising Alkalinity and Ph so doesn't have the negative effect of the NaHC03.
To avoid too high a Ph using baked Sodium bicarb its probably best to do a 50/50 mix of baked and unbaked thus increasing your alkalinity but not having much of an effect on your current Ph if its satisfactory.
As Ive already mentioned though if your only maintaining Alk with a spoon or so of Sodium bicarb in your top up every three or four days you probably wont see much of a shift anyhow depending on your tank volume.
Just my thoughts Tony

[Chris, Reef Ranch]

Hi,

If you are going to go down the route of Calcium Chloride and Sodium Chloride you should also purchase sodium chloride zero salt. This has all the other ingredients but sodium chloride is absent. I think you call this the bolling Method of alkalinity regulation. Getting sodium and chloride ions out of balance with the other solutes in salt water has vary effects from dissociation of carbonate to central nervous disorders of fish.

Sorry but better to have the full picture.


Chris

[MR Teee]

It's the balling method Chris originated in Germany I beleive.

These additions are to keep the parameters in check (as the title says) not to maintain levels.

To maintan these levels a balanced method should be chosen.

There a number as Chris has suggested, with the balling method requiring the use of special salt.

There are other ways of maintaining parameters using balanced additions, such as:

Kalwasser
Calcium reactors
2-part additions
and the balling method.

The first three are the more commonly used methods. The full picture will be revealed when articles on all 3 have been added to the site.

[Chris, Reef Ranch]

Are these additions likely to control our armed forces or at least support them in their recent difficult tasks? If you ain't gettin on no plane foooo, then I doubt if you would be donning a parachute and jumpin out of one?

There you go abbreviating everything again. Like I said before I'm not that quick

Chris

[Chris, Reef Ranch]

Does that warty sea cucumber under your name mean anything? He He

[callum_parsons]

good work adam this is very useful

and to chris is joke LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MR Teee]

Does that warty sea cucumber under your name mean anything? He He

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r5/adambirkitt/images.jpg

:eek::D

[oakwell]

interesting read has educated me abit more

[CCFCPETE]

Yeah technically speaking.

I was hinting at getting all of the chemicals for all 3 and testing for all 3 at the beginning.

You are quite right though Mg levels should be raised first as it has an effect on the other 2.

After sorting your Magnesium paras which follows next, Calcium or Alk ?

[MR Teee]

I don't think it really matters. You should get your Alk sorted as this stops PH swings.

More importantly though they need to be in balance, so you are probably going to be adjusting them at the same time to get them in balance.

Post up your readings and I'll have a look see.

[CCFCPETE]

I don't think it really matters. You should get your Alk sorted as this stops PH swings.

More importantly though they need to be in balance, so you are probably going to be adjusting them at the same time to get them in balance.

Post up your readings and I'll have a look see.

Cheers Mr Tee
Just tested the three & they are reading
Mag 930 Cal 360 Alk 3.20 all done with Sailfert test kits.

Regards

[MR Teee]

Yep, as you said bring the magnesium up to around 1250-1300ppm using the methods above, then get the Calcium and Alk back in balance.

What salt are you using? how often are you doing water changes?

[CCFCPETE]

Yep, as you said bring the magnesium up to around 1250-1300ppm using the methods above, then get the Calcium and Alk back in balance.

What salt are you using? how often are you doing water changes?
Thanx Mr Teee
I'm using Tropic Marin salt & I'm doing a 10% water change every 14 days.
I'm also using Seachem's Advantage Magnesium to raise the Mag levels is that stuff any good.

Pete

[MR Teee]

I'm suprised you are getting figures like that from tropic marin salt. Are you aerating it before use (at least 24 hrs)? and mixing to a salinity of 35PPTT?

The seachem stuff is fine, not the cheapest stuff in the world, but does the job. Follow the instructions and you should be OK.

It's going to take some time to get the levels upto NSW, but don't rush things and you should be good in a month or so.

Let me know how you get on.

[brian waller]

hi all you guys, all this info is great for the seasoned reefer, but anybody just starting up or thinging about starting up will be craping themselves trying to take that lot of info in, to them it means nothing but a headache,IMHO it will put more people of ,they is no hard & fast rule about getting all parms right at any one time,if its fish only a good half of those parms dont count, so dont confuse people with info that will not be needed in a fish only system.

brian.

[stevieh]

thanks professor tee, even i understood that.:D stevie

[Scooby_uk]

"hi all you guys, all this info is great for the seasoned reefer, but anybody just starting up or thinging about starting up will be craping themselves trying to take that lot of info in, to them it means nothing but a headache,IMHO it will put more people of ,they is no hard & fast rule about getting all parms right at any one time,if its fish only a good half of those parms dont count, so dont confuse people with info that will not be needed in a fish only system.

brian."

The DKH is important as this is one of the building blocks for stable ph if you dont have stable ph then you will end up with a tank full of very poorly looking fish and more than likely whitespot or marine velvet. I think it is important for anyone getting into the hobby that they know what they are letting themselves in for in the beginning rather than killing more and more of these beautiful creatures!!

been there, done it was a newbie once myself, knowledge is gained from learning from your mistakes, but true wisdom is learning from someone else`s.

Scooby_uk

[MR Teee]

hi all you guys, all this info is great for the seasoned reefer, but anybody just starting up or thinging about starting up will be craping themselves trying to take that lot of info in, to them it means nothing but a headache,IMHO it will put more people of ,they is no hard & fast rule about getting all parms right at any one time,if its fish only a good half of those parms dont count, so dont confuse people with info that will not be needed in a fish only system.

brian.

So don't do it Brian, I'm not putting a gun to your head.

Comments like that really piss me off.

There are hard and fast rules, Its called saltwater, all the creatures we keep live in some!!

Your in the wrong hobby if you don't want to understand the ins and outs of the water chemistry.

I'm here to help anybody that needs it, so please keep your shortsighted and inflamatory comments to yourself.

[lasgringo]

well said adam,after the time and effort you've put into giving some good advice in a way that everyone can understand i dont blame you feeling pee'd off

[CCFCPETE]

I'm suprised you are getting figures like that from tropic marin salt. Are you aerating it before use (at least 24 hrs)? and mixing to a salinity of 35PPTT?

The seachem stuff is fine, not the cheapest stuff in the world, but does the job. Follow the instructions and you should be OK.

It's going to take some time to get the levels upto NSW, but don't rush things and you should be good in a month or so.

Let me know how you get on.

Thanx Mr Teee for all the feedback your giving me its much appreciated :) .
This is the first time Ive used TM salt just bought it last week,prevoius salt I was using was called Aqua Medic.
Refering your comment about 35PPTT,Now your confusing me :o .
What I do when I water change is put 20 Lts of RO water in a container with an air stone & heat it up to 77.5.Then I start to add the salt until I'm showing on my refractometer 1.026,then I do my water change.
Also you mension things should be good in a month or two ?.
I thought that when you buff its would raise what your buffing over night to your desired level ?.
Just to let you know Ive only been keeping Marnie's for a few months so I'm a total novice I'm afarid :o .
Regards

[MR Teee]

No worries, I'll clear a few things up.

You can measure the amount of salt in water in in 2 ways.

Firstly there is salinity, measured in parts per thousand PPT, this reading is not affected by temperature.

And then there is specific gravity which does not have any units. Specific gravity depends on the tmperature of the water as well as the amount of salt.

The way you are doing it - (measuring specific gravity)(1.026 @ 77.5 degrees ) is completely fine, and is just about 35ppt salinity anyway. ( I prefer Salinity as you don't need to worry about the temperature)

When you look through your refractometer, dopes it have 2 sets of numbers? The second set that you are not using, should be salinity.

When you mix the salt with the water, how long do you leave it to aerate? I wouuld say it should be 24hrs. This drives out the cCO2 in the mix and allows the chemicals in the water to reach there optimum value.

Just like Mousehunters low readings, I think you should test a fresh batch of saltwater first. Mix it up as you usually do, but leave the air stone running for 24hours. Post up the results on here and we can take any action required then.


If this turns out OK then your water changes will make the readings in your tank get closer and closer to those of the saltwater mix you are using. Hence the 1-2 month timeframe to let it do this.

You shouldn't change any of the major parameters overnight, remember everything in reefkeeping goes slowly!

[CCFCPETE]

When you mix the salt with the water, how long do you leave it to aerate? I wouuld say it should be 24hrs. This drives out the cCO2 in the mix and allows the chemicals in the water to reach there optimum value.

ooops :eek:
I make & water change the same day but from now on I'll try & make it up the prevoius day before I do the water change.
Ive only just done a water change,but I do have 20 lts already salted up for the next change which is due in about 12 days should I keep this heated & aerating or can I leave it in the bucket & start heating & aerating the day before.
Ps
sorry for all the questions I must be starting to get on your nerves.

[Tom2006]

I don't leave my salt water to mix for long at all and have not had any negatives....yet? What is the reasoning for leaving it for so long? I can't see any real benefits for leaving it for 24 hours. If the salt is mixed you might as well just add the water?

[MR Teee]

No worries Pete, I'm here to help.

You can aerate and heat the day before, as long as the container is sealed.

Tom, don't take my word for it mate, here are some quotes for you.

Wikepedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_aquarium

"Aging and aerating saltwater (such as in a bucket with a powerhead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powerhead) or airstone) is recommended as good practice to allow the salts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salts) to fully ionize and the pH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH) to stabilize."

Seachem - http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/MarineSalt.html

" Stir well to ensure a good mix. Although the Marine Salt™ solution may be used immediately, we suggest aerating the water until it achieves oxygen/carbon dioxide equilibrium."

Sorry I cannot get any more that are a bit more reputable, but you get the drift.

My own understanding was that it drives of CO2, elevating the PH, and allows the various elements in the mix, calcium , mag , alk, etc acheive their true values.

You could test a non aerated batch to see, but I would expect the ph to be low if nothing else. Why go through the trouble of making it up, getting it to the right temp, salinity etc , but have the Ph out of whack and potentially all the other key parameters?, just rfor the sake of aerating it.

[Tetley]

Hi,

As above really. MR TEEE knows his onions:D.

Lots of sound advice. :) :)

ATB

[Tom2006]

Thing is, if your using RO water in a water/air tight container then there should hardly be any elements, including carbon in the water at all. Therefore you don't need to agitate it to remove it, if its not there in the first place. I have done tests on my instant ocean (I mix 25l at a time) and the pH is stable after just ten minutes. I'm not saying don't mix it etc....I'm just saying I haven't found the need to do so. But as always, whatever works for the individual is best. :D

[TerraC]

I usually run off the ro water, chuck the salt in with a heater and powerhead then fasten the lid back over as sealed as I can get it with the leads sticking out of the top to stop contaminants getting in. it tends to get left for 24hrs, mainly so that I can come straight to it after work and do the change on the following day rather than have to waste my whole night waiting for salt to mix etc.

However, just to throw this into the mix so to speak :) If you run off your ro water and left the lid off for 24hrs your TDS would go through the roof due to the airborne contaminants yeah? So why do people airate their saltmix with an airstone? surely you are pumping airborne contaminants back into the water for 24hrs?

[MR Teee]

Thing is, if your using RO water in a water/air tight container then there should hardly be any elements, including carbon in the water at all. Therefore you don't need to agitate it to remove it, if its not there in the first place. I have done tests on my instant ocean (I mix 25l at a time) and the pH is stable after just ten minutes. I'm not saying don't mix it etc....I'm just saying I haven't found the need to do so. But as always, whatever works for the individual is best. :D

I am not saying agitate the RO water, RO has no buffering capacity, the Ph will be all over the place. As Ray says, any airbourne contaminants will pollute the RO and make the TDS rise.

Just to make this totally clear RO should be stored in a dark airtight container until it is actually needed to make saltwater.

25l of saltwater is not alot, so its not going to take long for the mix to become stable, yes 10 minutes may be enough, and the act of pouring may have aerated it enough. PH aside have you tested for any thing ese in the fresh salt mix Tom?

[Tom2006]

No, haven't tested for anything else, as I don't really see the point. The RO is left in the containers (in a dark place) prior to mixing so they get up to room temp.

When I kept discus I use to aerate and heat my RO water in a tank, but then (like Ray has said) I thought whats the point, as all I was doing was pumping in airbourne contaminants into a virtually pure water which was gagging to take up anything.

Its definitely a grey area this maybe it will come back and bite me one day but so far my short mixing times have caused my tank no problems at all. :)

[MR Teee]

I am not saying agitate the RO water, RO has no buffering capacity, the Ph will be all over the place. As Ray says, any airbourne contaminants will pollute the RO and make the TDS rise.

Just to make this totally clear RO should be stored in a dark airtight container until it is actually needed to make saltwater.



Tom read the above again, you are agreeing with what I am saying fresh RO water should not be aerated.

I am talking about after the addition of salt when the TDS is 35,00ppm not zero.

Its not a grey area at all. Its chemistry. I will dig out some more relevant and reputable sources tonight whenI get home.

[Tom2006]

Thanks Teee, I'm genuinely keen to learn so if you can convince me then I'll have to start. ;) In relation to the aeration no need to read your post again as I am agreeing :) . I'm just curious to know, if we are not aerating the salt/ro mix, then once the salt is mixed, why leave it any longer?..i.e. 24 hours? Cheers

[brian waller]

So don't do it Brian, I'm not putting a gun to your head.

Comments like that really piss me off.

There are hard and fast rules, Its called saltwater, all the creatures we keep live in some!!

Your in the wrong hobby if you don't want to understand the ins and outs of the water chemistry.

I'm here to help anybody that needs it, so please keep your shortsighted and inflamatory comments to yourself.

mr teee,im entitle to say what i like weather you like it or not so dont spite your dummy out just because i dont agree with you & if i piss you off then fine, but i will say what i think.

brian.

[MR Teee]

No reason to leave it any longer if you are not aerating it, Its not going to change any other parameters.

I didn't mean it to sound like that, if it did, sorry for giving you the wrong idea.

[MR Teee]

mr teee,im entitle to say what i like weather you like it or not so dont spite your dummy out just because i dont agree with you & if i piss you off then fine, but i will say what i think.

brian.

So how about posting something helpfull then:eek:

[Scooby_uk]

oh great !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MR Teee]

They say a picture paints a thousand words.... This is what I am getting at

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r5/adambirkitt/Figure3.jpg

Can we keep the non helpfull comments out of the thread please gents, Its supposed to be a reference therad. If you feel the need to say something do it in a new thread, as it only makes this one more confusing.:D :rolleyes:

[Tom2006]

Thanks for the graph Mr Teee, I agree about the non-helpful posts. This is what the PM function is for people ;)

Going back to the graph. If we are discussing RO water, then this is pure (or virtually pure) and hence it should not have CO2 (or very, low levels) in it, should it not? Therefore, why the need to aerate it for 24 hours? I'm not deliberately trying to be awkward here... honest :D Just trying to get my head around the issue.....because if I'm doing it wrong then I will change it.

[MR Teee]

Yes RO water should have no CO2 in it, as soon as it is made though and exposed to the air, it will stat to absorb the CO2, this will turn the water acidic, and is why you can't measure the Ph of RO as so many different factors affect it.

BUT I thought we were talking about after the salt had been added to the RO *where the graph is valid NOT justpure RO?

[Tom2006]

Yes, I was talking about both really. When I mix my salt I will be adding oxygen and then leave it all to settle with the lid back on. I'm still confused why there are problems with excess co2 if I do this?

[MR Teee]

Because when RO water is generated it is stripped of everything.

Once you add salt due to the chemistry of the saltwater, it is more inclined to absorb CO2 rather than oxygen.

This supresses the PH of the frshly mixed saltwater.

To get it back up you need to drive the excess CO2 out of the fresh salt mix by aeratnig it.

Tom, if you are not experiencing low Ph in your tank after a water change then you are fine and don't need to worry about it. Small percentage water changes are not going to affect stock.

If you did a water change of 40% with the fesh saltwater being 7.6 and the tank being 8.3, what do you think the inhabitants of the tank will feel?

[Tom2006]

I hear where your coming from Mr Teee and thanks for your time trying to get the info into my head. I perform 10% water changes at a time and so far have never had any problems. I might start mixing for longer in future.

[MR Teee]

No worries Tom. You know where to find me if things do start drifting a bit.