nitrate

[tonyponty]

hi all just to say my sons tank is still showing a high reading of nitrate dispite doing some water changes even put a new nitrate sponge in filter any ideas how to get this down thx all isother stats are ok

[Reefer]

Is your nitrate kit accurate or out of date? I would go to the lfs and get a check done.
If all is correct and nitrate is high, check to see if anything has died in there, obvious I know but it can be overlooked sometimes.

[Simon]

If that doesn't work then i think you'll just have to be patient :lol: mine was fine until i added a dodgy piece of LR and then the readings went through the roof! :Shame on you: You'll get there in the end i'm sure :-D

[marcoz]

do you have a sump? u could try growing some chaeto seaweed to keep the nitrates/phosphates down

[tonyponty]

no he does not have a sump and niether do i is it better to have a sump but dont you have to have your tank drilled

[marcoz]

well, it's very handy- I have my skimmer and heater in there and am just starting to grow some chaeto. You don't have to drill your tank though, I've built an overflow box for mine that just sits on the side of the tank :grin:

[flying Jock]

Hi

High nitrates can be a number of reasons:

Over stocking with fish

Poor skimming

Using poor water (not ro water or ro unit needs maintanence)

Over feeding

Poor circulation

Having too much Lr and not scaping it properly

Using an incorrect set up DSB

Adding invert foods

Not enough water changes

Using cannister filters, internal filters, sand filters, trickle filters for biological filtration.

All of the above can lead to a deteration in water quality.

Nitrates should be as close to zero as possible and that also applies to a FO tank. :wink:

If you can provide some answers to the above i am sure we can help.

Cheers

FJ

[tonyponty]

hi fj well i have only 4 small fish just cheap ones i got to help cycle tank

skimming im not sure i have a bio floater but a fish place told me to adjust so it takes about a week to fill the cup so not quite sure on this one

water is r/o my son only had the unit 2 month so should be ok

feeding i feed 3 times daily small amounts of flake

circulation not sure :oops: have skimmer at back left of tank
filter at oppsite end both going towards front of tank
have 2 power heads one at each end of tank blowing towards each other

live rock i have about 13 kg ish my tank is 4ft by 15in by 18in deep
rock lined across back but thinking of moving it to leave space all round as u advised earlier

only got a 1/2 inch of live sand when tank was set up

inverts food i do put some mussel in once a week
for shrimps and crabs

water changes have not done many because i loose about 2 gallon a week in avapp so got told dont need to do many water changes

i have a box bilogical filter that has 3 sponges a carbon course a fine and some bead things under pump part i change the carbon 1 every 8 weeks this is what it states

hope i have not bored you to much with this lot fj and any one else
but all the help is very much appreciated thanks :oops: got a lot to learn i know

[flying Jock]

Hi TP

No you have not bored me too much! :wink:

Your LR is enough due to your very low stocking levels.

There is no need for any other filtration as you LR will do this for you.

I would suggest a 10% water change at least once a month.

i would also moitor what you are feeding 4 small fish and get a good skimmer on your reef.

Carbon should be changed regulary due to its ability to leach what it has taken in back into your reef.

I add a small amount of carbon once a months and run it for around a week.

everything else seems ok and just make sure you have plenty of circulation around your tank.

Go with the open LR look it will work great for you :wink:

FJ

[Buster]

:Thinking:

[marcoz]

With regards to the water changes it is vital to do them. I lost a lot through evaporation during the summer and thought a top up with r/o would be fine. I soon realised that phosphate levels were going up and PH down. After doing some straight forward water changes the levels went back to normal and everything improved. I found out that the nutrients in the salt needed replacing and topping it up with plain r/o didn't replenish these. I hope this helps :)

I'll leave FJ to answer the others :wink:

[tonyponty]

well thank you all for the advice much appreciated im learning a lot from all you members slow but sure
tried reading the books but cant get me head round them
thx once again :)

do you think i should stop using the internal filter

[marcoz]

hmmm, this is something I've been thinking about doing myself as filters are good at breaking down amonia but produce nitrates. I'd like to keep things as natural as possible and have heard that many people don't use any media in their filters. Live rock, deep sand bed, good water flow and a skimmer should be enough to keep the water tip top(and water changes of course!). You can try a phosphate remover in your filter instead amongst other things- I'm looking in to all the possibilities myself :wink:

[flying Jock]

Spot on Marcoz! :wink:

Other forms of biological filtration (man Made) will easily convert Ammonia to Nitrite and Nitrite to Nitrate but when you need Nitrate converting to Nitrogeneous gas they are unbale to take that step.

That is why you end up with high nitrates.

Obviously water changes will reduce the nitrates but using natural methods ( LR, DSB, Caulerpa's) will stop your reef accumualting nitrates.

Phosphate is another naturally acumulating element which can be transported from your system naturally (caulerpa) or by man made means (phosphate media).

I find that using a fluidised filter (Deltec) phosphate media works much better.

I find that Rowa would compact in a filter and cause channelling which meant that the media was not working to its full capacity.

Fluidising it gently means that all the media is in contact with the water going through it.

I do exactly the same with carbon in an old fluidised sand filter! :wink:

I hope this helps

FJ

[marcoz]

Thanks FJ- I'm learning so much on this forum :grin:

[Simon180]

Hey TP

Just to let you know, your not the only person suffering with nitrates. Working in a marine shop I test peoples water all the time, and most read high in nitrate and phosphates. Even my own tank has suffered from stupidly high levels, as I'm sure most members have in the past.

My advise to you would have to be, do lots of water changes with good Ro water and a good brand of salt. When mine was high I did a water change every other day and it soon came down. Extra flow will help, 2 powerheads in a 4 foot tank is not that much, the more flow you have the better your liverock will act as a filter.

FJ has covered most things that can cause high nitrate, the only thing I would add is to make sure you change any filter floss weekly (If your using it) other wise it becomes a nitrate producer.

Other methods of reducing nitrates are available but not all suitable. Denitrification filters can be used which can be very affective. Also chemicals and sponges can be used but I would personally stay away from them.

Most fish and most soft corals can survive in high nitrates so there’s no point panicking.

This is just my advice as im sure other people have there own Beliefs.

Thanks
Simon

[tonyponty]

cheers simon

[flying Jock]

Some good advice Simon but i would always get to the root of the problems first.

Of course water changes will help but a bit pointless if your nitrates start creeping back up again because you havent found out where they are coming from.

Denitrification filters now thats a topic on its own! :shock: :grin:

Nitrates over trace are not what your corals and fish are used to (on reefs) so i would look at reducing them asap.

We MUST aim for optimum water parameters and give your livestock what they deserve.

I like Simon am not a fan of chemicals so try and get to the route of the problem and you will be fine.

Cheers

FJ

[tonyponty]

well f j still going through the list ya put up for me
and when you was on about the internal bio filter
i thought i would remove all the sponges
last night and i have just checked the nitrate again tonight and the reading has dropped almost half so will leave them out and check againe tomorrow

[flying Jock]

Well done TP! 8-) :wink:

Let us know how you get on!

As i said getting to the route of the problem will save you a lot of time and money and sore heads! :grin:

FJ

[Dons1903]

I would say that you need to up the flow in your tank. 2 powerheads would not be moving enough water. As you should be looking for at least 20 times your tank capacity per hour.

My tank is 48"x18"x12" which gives me 150l capacity. I currently have 3 x Powersweep heads at 500l/h each. This is only 10x capacity (plus the return from my Fluval 403 and skimmer). :(

I have just ordered a Seio M820 pump which gives me 820g/h or 3200l/h which is just over 20x/h from a single pump! :grin:

It has the advantage of a wide/even stream of water instead of the concentrated jet from a standard powerhead. Also a single unit produces less heat than the3 p/h and also uses less electricity :)

[Blue]

what carbon do you use FJ plz :)

[tonyponty]

cheers dons how many would i need and what is the price of the one you on about thx

[Dons1903]

If your tank is 48"x18"x15" then it would be around 200l so 20x would be 4000l/h.

Seio Pumps:
M620 (2400l/h) is £30
M820 (3200l/h) is £40
M1100 (4400l/h) is £55

You could replace your existing units or just add to them if heat isnt an issue in your tank.

[flying Jock]

Hi

Agree with Dons circulation is such an underestimated thing in a reef.

It is on the same par with lighting and filtration.

I use 3 streams with a wave box as well as another few 3000l pumps but the stream have the edge on the spread of flow that they put out for such low wattage.

Seio's are a cheaper buy but just as good an option however im sticking with Tunze! :grin:

I am testing a carbon for a LFS at the moment and for the life of me i cant remember the name of it.

Will find out for you an let you knwo my results but so far i am happy!

All i know it is not showing any phosphates with my Deltec test kit as the previous carbon was showing 0.8 with 3 granules! :shock: :evil:

A lot of manufacturers will claim there product is phosphate free but i would test you carbon. :wink:

Cheers

FJ

[Dons1903]

Seio's are a cheaper buy but just as good an option however im sticking with Tunze! :grin:

Agreed, they are a total rip off of the Tunze units but get good reviews and are much cheaper! :grin:

Don't know about there longevity though :-? Guess i'll find out :wink:

[flying Jock]

Yeah they are sure not cheap! :shock:

Another reason i never went with the seios was that you could not adjust them through a multicontroller but they have now brought one out.

Anyway i manged to pick up two 6100's and multicontroller for £170 with only 6 months use so i think that was cheaper than seios :P

Another great Scottish bargain! :wink: 8-)

FJ

[Macca]

Remember a protein skimmer will remove protein before they decompose into the nitrogen cycle. (Ammonia - Nitrite - Nitrate). So to reduce this process - GET A GOOD SKIMMER!

James

[tonyponty]

hi just like to say thanks for all the help and my nitrate is now just about zero think my internal filter was the culprit lol even had new sponges in it
so thanks to f j for leading me to it

Seio Pumps:
M620 (2400l/h) is £30
M820 (3200l/h) is £40
M1100 (4400l/h) is £55

where di ya find these donns i cant find any on ebay lol

[Dons1903]

I ordered mine through my LFS but Ultimate Aquatics (http://www.uda.co.uk) do them mail order.

[tonyponty]

ok cheers donns thx for your help

[Reefer]

I have heard that the Seio pumps are more powerful and less power consuming and less heat giving in the tank than nearly all the pumps on the market today.
Whats to lose give them a go?.