Assistance Please

[Tetley]

Hi Guys,

Well I am starting to look at various levels in my tank as am keeping LPS.

I have measured dkh - which is low (Salifert (sp)), and also my Mg again low.

So am I right in assuming I need to raise Mg first before I tackle any thing else ? If so, I have purchased a product from Interfish (forget name - sorry), which is supposed to raise Mg - on instructions it say's for beginers (thats me (LOL)), and 5ml per 20 gallons of water. As I have about 100 gallons - I think I should add about 5 level teaspoons (I teaspoon = 5ml)

Do I ned to be aware of any thing before I set out ? if so what (in simple terms please- as I am simple !! (LOL)

Any pointers for a novice, welcome

Thanks in advance.

Ian

[MR Teee]

Add the 5 teaspoons very slowly, probably a days gap between each addition, and add it to an area of high flow in the sump. Alternatively mix with topu up water and drip in slowly over a period of time.

You are doing the right thing in tackling the magnesium first. But remember you can acheive the same thing with epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) if you can't get hold of any of the branded stuff.

As with all things marine - take it slow.

[Tetley]

Add the 5 teaspoons very slowly, probably a days gap between each addition, and add it to an area of high flow in the sump. Alternatively mix with topu up water and drip in slowly over a period of time.

You are doing the right thing in tackling the magnesium first. But remember you can acheive the same thing with epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) if you can't get hold of any of the branded stuff.

As with all things marine - take it slow.

Thanks Adam,

When could I expect to see a increase in Mg (time scale?).

Once Mg is correct, do I continue to monitor?

Lots of questions, have a chin wag at meet ? -

Thanks

Ian

[Harrison]

Hi Ian,

Try this link to help calculate the required dose (just be aware its US gallons & you need to allow for displacement from rocks).

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html

As per Adam increase levels nice and slowly, the recommended maximum for magnesium is 50ppm per day.

Cheers

Matthew

[Tetley]

Hi Ian,

Try this link to help calculate the required dose (just be aware its US gallons & you need to allow for displacement from rocks).

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/chemcalc.html

As per Adam increase levels nice and slowly, the recommended maximum for magnesium is 50ppm per day.

Cheers

Matthew


Thanks Matthew,

Confused.com is me at moment

If you are going to meet, wud appreciate guidence from you also.

Bit of a minefield - and I am not confident as I am a little unsure as to what questions I should be asking.

ATB

Ian

[MR Teee]

Thanks Adam,

When could I expect to see a increase in Mg (time scale?).

Once Mg is correct, do I continue to monitor?

Lots of questions, have a chin wag at meet ? -

Thanks

Ian

Well have a natter at the meet mate. It makes more sense than trying to explain it all on here.

[Tetley]

Well have a natter at the meet mate. It makes more sense than trying to explain it all on here.

cheers :)


Ian

[gregh]

Ian,

How are you going to keep the tank in balance longer term? It may be worth thinking about that as well, are you going to use a calc reactor, kalk, or keep manually dosing in the medium/long term, once you have the tank in balance?

regards,

Greg

[Tetley]

Ian,

How are you going to keep the tank in balance longer term? It may be worth thinking about that as well, are you going to use a calc reactor, kalk, or keep manually dosing in the medium/long term, once you have the tank in balance?

regards,

Greg

Good questions Gregh - as I am just looking into the chemistry a bit deeper than I have in the past, the truth is I don't know.

At the moment I have tested Mg, Ca, DKh to try and understand the relationship between these.

As my Mg is low as is my DKH (assuming of course I am reading the instructions on the kits that I use to measure, correctly), then I need to understand how and why I need to correct, what dangers are there, how to adjust, and as you say, how to keep in balance in the future.

Lots of questions I have.

As Adam said, over the forum is not the easiest place to ask.

How's your tank ? Seen your post regarding the problem you are having, seem's to be a lot of blank faces on how to cure the problem both on this site and that other BB we frequent - hope you find your answer - you have such a nice tank, and it must be fustrating to say the least, with the problem you have.

ATB

Ian

[gregh]

Hi Ian,

I'm away this week, so not sure how the tank is coming along, going to take a sample down to Chris at Reefranch for some expert analysis!

I found with my old tank that I needed to run a calc reactor just to get my dkh at a consistantly high enough level, so I think I got everything in balance, fired up the calc reactor and bob was indeed my uncle :)

This is a good read about calc reactors:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/sh/feature/index.php

regards,

Greg

[Tetley]

Hi Ian,

I'm away this week, so not sure how the tank is coming along, going to take a sample down to Chris at Reefranch for some expert analysis!

I found with my old tank that I needed to run a calc reactor just to get my dkh at a consistantly high enough level, so I think I got everything in balance, fired up the calc reactor and bob was indeed my uncle :)

This is a good read about calc reactors:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/sh/feature/index.php

regards,

Greg

Chris will enjoy getting to grips with the problem - right up his street.

Thank you for the link.

ATB

Ian

[Chris, Reef Ranch]

Might be a Seachem product. It is reputedly the best product on the market, we sell it also. Go steady with it. If it is the product I think it is "Seachem Reef Advanced Magnesium" then set up a drip feed, dissolve it in R/O and add it slowly. Notice any problems with Euphyllia then stop adding it or add it slower.

Chris

[MR Teee]

Ian, any news on the parameters? Where are they all reading at present, Alkalinity, Magnesium, Calcium, Ph

Have you started dosing the seachem stuff yet?

[Tetley]

Ian, any news on the parameters? Where are they all reading at present, Alkalinity, Magnesium, Calcium, Ph

Have you started dosing the seachem stuff yet?


Hi Adam

After a chat with a sponser, it was suggested I run carbon for a while.

I have done this over the last 24 hours (my softies did not like it much), so I am going to run a full set of tests on Saturday to see where I am.

Need to purchase a ph meter in the meantime as the test strips are a little hit and miss.

The strange thing is I have various other LPS (Trumpet, Hammer, Bubble), all of these are looking A1, so am at a loss to explain my torch's slow decline.

I will post up results Saturday - input apprecaited then :)

Thanks

Ian

[Macca]

Ian, dont know the full story but it may be possible that the sponsor suggested running carbon to remove chemicals in the water that could be being released from soft corals and damaging the hard corals. Has the torch coral been moved? Have you added a soft coral near it? Is there a soft coral that has grown and becoming close to it? Also carbon collects chemicals it does not produce chemicals. Are you sure this is what is causing your soft corals to not appear as healthy?


James

[Tetley]

Ian, dont know the full story but it may be possible that the sponsor suggested running carbon to remove chemicals in the water that could be being released from soft corals and damaging the hard corals. Has the torch coral been moved? Have you added a soft coral near it? Is there a soft coral that has grown and becoming close to it? Also carbon collects chemicals it does not produce chemicals. Are you sure this is what is causing your soft corals to not appear as healthy?


James

Hi James,

Well I have the torch for some time now, both in my old tank & now in my new one, its not near anything, nor never has been. Was 5 heads, now down to 1 very sorry looking one.

As to the carbon, yes your right, used to remove chemicals, however I thought it was not uncommon for softies to react when carbon is being run, they did not close fully, more looked sorry for them selves.

Mind you the African bush - looked blooming great:confused:

Sponser suggested ORP also may be a problem - but I got lost here and develpoed a glazed confused look (not that hard for me really :D )

So, confused.com is me, lead me down the path gently ;)

[Macca]

You will require an ORP meter to test for it. To be honest they are never right (IMO have an AM one) What they are good for is showing if your system have a lower or higher ORP than normal. When I say this I mean they are good monitors but IMO there results can be wrong.

If I can explain.

If your Redox meter shows a mv value of 350 or there abouts every day and one day for no reason (water changes etc) you have a reading of 280 then you know your water quality is poor. I am not for one minutes suggesting that the water has a mv of 280 but it is showing to be more polluted than normal.

Hope this helps.

James

PS I never knew this regarding carbon, so you knew something I didn't. I have never noticed my softies reacting in this way when recharging carbon.

[Tetley]

You will require an ORP meter to test for it. To be honest they are never right (IMO have an AM one) What they are good for is showing if your system have a lower or higher ORP than normal. When I say this I mean they are good monitors but IMO there results can be wrong.

If I can explain.

If your Redox meter shows a mv value of 350 or there abouts every day and one day for no reason (water changes etc) you have a reading of 280 then you know your water quality is poor. I am not for one minutes suggesting that the water has a mv of 280 but it is showing to be more polluted than normal.

Hope this helps.

James

PS I never knew this regarding carbon, so you knew something I didn't. I have never noticed my softies reacting in this way when recharging carbon.


Cheers for info James,

I love this hobby because it makes you think.

ATB

Ian

[Macca]

Ian, I would run carbon after doing some thinking. This would rule out chemicals. If the coral is getting the same light, same flow as normal then it could be slowly starving to death. I hate imported Euphyllias for this. Unlike sps corals that can turn to coral skelleton in a night LPS corals seem to flourish and then for no reason degrade over time. I currently have a colony of torch corals looking really healthy (This week). And have a colony of mixed ancora that most look good apart from a cluster of 4 which had slowly lost 2 head and 1 is showing classic signs of dying (One part of the head you can just see a bit of coral skeleton). Cant find any answer other than slow starvation. Welcome to the world of hard corals. On a positive note I have kept and still got hardy Bubble corals for many years.

James

PS Look at your LFS and I am sure you will see evidence of LPS starvation. A coral display that has LPS skeletons in it. They were not skeletons when setup but have dies through time. I hate to think you are pulling your hair out :p through something that imported hard corals seem to do regularly.

[Tetley]

Ian, I would run carbon after doing some thinking. This would rule out chemicals. If the coral is getting the same light, same flow as normal then it could be slowly starving to death. I hate imported Euphyllias for this. Unlike sps corals that can turn to coral skelleton in a night LPS corals seem to flourish and then for no reason degrade over time. I currently have a colony of torch corals looking really healthy (This week). And have a colony of mixed ancora that most look good apart from a cluster of 4 which had slowly lost 2 head and 1 is showing classic signs of dying (One part of the head you can just see a bit of coral skeleton). Cant find any answer other than slow starvation. Welcome to the world of hard corals. On a positive note I have kept and still got hardy Bubble corals for many years.

James

PS Look at your LFS and I am sure you will see evidence of LPS starvation. A coral display that has LPS skeletons in it. They were not skeletons when setup but have dies through time. I hate to think you are pulling your hair out :p through something that imported hard corals seem to do regularly.


Thanks again James,

Not sure about the hair bit :D , grass don't grow on a busy street as we both know :rolleyes:

[Macca]

The strange thing is I have various other LPS (Trumpet, Hammer, Bubble), all of these are looking A1, so am at a loss to explain my torch's slow decline.

Ian

LPS corals that seem to be more hardy and catch their own food and in general last many years in captivity -Trumpets, bubbles, plates, cup, brains . LPS Coral I find require feeding - most other including your hammer Ian.

All my opinion through my experince only regarding feeding.

Most books point to water quality for difficulty in keeping certain LPS but why do certain LPS die through time?? in some instances they perish in certain tanks that demand high water quality (sps systems).

James

[Tangman]

Stick to softies then you wont have all this messing about, i have no probs with my softies they always open up. Rant over thats the reason i keep only softies as i cant be arssed to mess about doing all this testing. But each to there own i suppose as we cant all use the same method of reefkeeping. :) Eric

[MR Teee]

Most books point to water quality for difficulty in keeping certain LPS but why do certain LPS die through time?? in some instances they perish in certain tanks that demand high water quality (sps systems).

James

The majority of LPS though are from very nutrient rich waters, i.e lagoonal type environments. Putting them in a zero nutrient SPS tank will cause then to degrade over time because they are not getting enough food.

Some LPS (like everything else) are exceptional, and do like pristine water.

Thats the trouble with a mixed system. Some like the clean water some like the dirtier water. You will not get either flourishing in the same tank IMO, at least the 'avarage' hobbyist won't.

[MR Teee]

Stick to softies then you wont have all this messing about, i have no probs with my softies they always open up.

Thats all that tang poo fertilising them!!

[Macca]

The majority of LPS though are from very nutrient rich waters, i.e lagoonal type environments. Putting them in a zero nutrient SPS tank will cause then to degrade over time because they are not getting enough food.

Some LPS (like everything else) are exceptional, and do like pristine water.

Thats the trouble with a mixed system. Some like the clean water some like the dirtier water. You will not get either flourishing in the same tank IMO, at least the 'avarage' hobbyist won't.

Agreed to a certain extent but LPS and SPS require the same enriched water (Calcium, trace elements etc etc) the main difference is SPS Coral take a lot of food via light source where LPS require food substances also to flourish. You can keep the water quality pristine and the zoo/phyto plankton high but it is demanding.

When we talk about nutrient enriched water we dont mean poor water high in nutrients (Phosphates / Nitrates) We mean good nutrients ie proteins, carbos (Live Food matter - Plankton).

If your system can cope then SPS at the top catching most light and higher water flow and LPS at the lower range in calmer less light environment. That what I strive to do but the LPS I mentioned above IMO require target feeding to.

James

[Tetley]

On the question of target feeding,

I asked the same question on that other well known BB, one of the respected sponsers (the one I got my Bubble from in Warrington ;) , said he never targets feeds his LPS - just goe's to show, we all have different views.

I suppose if it ain't broken - don't fix it (just my two pence worth) :D

[Macca]

If my LPS were being sold each month then I would not foul my water also. The problem is when you have these LPS for more than the shop.

James

[Tetley]

If my LPS were being sold each month then I would not foul my water also. The problem is when you have these LPS for more than the shop.

James

Good point James :) :) and 4 more post & I will at 400 - what will that make me (nice answers please !)

[Macca]

Another intresting debate is the amount of nutrients a SPS system requires. If you had low nutrients then the dinoflagellates within the sps tissue would have limited fertiliser to flourish. If you over fertilise (High nutrients) They produce so rapidly they turn the colour brown. That is why we use high intensity light to keep the SPS colour from going Brown. The SPS coral will shed its dinoflagellates when it getting enough light.

So if you have low nutrients and low light you will not over fertilise the SPS coral and you can still keep those lovely colours (Never seen this done to date -lol). If you have exess nutrients you will require excess light to keep thos dinoflagellates under control and stop all your lovely acros going brown.

This is where it becomes demanding to keep LPS with SPS as I believe you need to taget feed certain ones (Torches, Hammers) and it is not all down to light, water flow and nutrients.

All my opinion

James

[Tetley]

Another intresting debate is the amount of nutrients a SPS system requires. If you had no nutrients then the dinoflagellates within the sps tissue would have not fertiliser to flourish. If you over fertilise (High nutrients) They produce so rapidly they turn the colour brown. That is why we use high intensity light to keep the SPS colour from going Brown. The SPS coral will shed its dinoflagellates when it getting enough light.

So if you have low nutrients and low light you will not over fertilise the SPS coral and you can still keep those lovely colours. If you have exess nutrients you will require excess light to keep thos dinoflagellates under control and stop all your lovely acros going brown.

This is where it becomes demanding to keep LPS with SPS as I believe you need to taget feed certain ones (Torches, Hammers) and it is not all down to light, water flow and nutrients.

All my opinion

James


So if one were to feed Hammers & Torches, what would it be and can I get it from a Supermarket not far from me ?

[MR Teee]

So if you have low nutrients and low light you will not over fertilise the SPS coral and you can still keep those lovely colours (Never seen this done to date -lol). If you have exess nutrients you will require excess light to keep thos dinoflagellates under control and stop all your lovely acros going brown.

Goes a long way to explain why relatively low PAR output 20k lamps help keep the colours of the corals.

But is it due to the low amount of light compared to 10K or the spectrum of the bulb?

[Macca]

More than likely, well in fact, you system is lacking plankton. You cannot go and buy zoo plankton at the supermaket, I wish you could.

Try feeding some brine shrimp at night when your LPS are in nutrient feeding mode, Bubble corals bubbles change shape - At dusk in light time. I believe you Hammer might be beyond saving but good luck.

James


PS - Catch 22 HERE - You will cause an excess of bad nutrients (Nitrate and phosphates) that your SPS and softies as well as you LPS as a bi product of their food will dislike.

[Macca]

This thread is a very debatable and all my views are MY VIEWS. They are not facts and could well be wrong! But they are what I strongly believe in.

James

[MR Teee]

This thread is a very debatable and all my views are MY VIEWS. They are not facts and could well be wrong! But they are what I strongly believe in.

James

Thats why its a discussion forum mate and not a dictation forum like others.

[Tetley]

This thread is a very debatable and all my views are MY VIEWS. They are not facts and could well be wrong! But they are what I strongly believe in.

James


Your view are appreciated, the debate is the whole point of the forum - well maybe not the whole point :D

It's nice to have views input, without somebody getting on there high horse.

Thanks for taking the time :)

[Macca]

Thanks Mr Tee, I just would like to point out what I have learned but know it is certainly not a fact. I believe no one should dictate but give out what they believe to be true. Unless it is a proven fact then it aint wrong. So get the under gravel filters back out folks! :D

James

[Macca]

Goes a long way to explain why relatively low PAR output 20k lamps help keep the colours of the corals.

But is it due to the low amount of light compared to 10K or the spectrum of the bulb?

no reply as havent a clue

James

[Macca]

Ian attached images of my torch and hammers, You will notice one of my hammers has lost two heads. I bet my bottom dollar the other two heads from the same colony will be gone before 2007.

James

[Tetley]

Ian attached images of my torch and hammers, You will notice one of my hammers has lost two heads. I bet my bottom dollar the other two will be gone before 2007.

James


Thanks James,

I have come to the conclussion that my Torch will gone very soon also.

I hate it when I have failed to keep the animals in my care :( - the only way for me is to read, ask, and ask some more.

[Cudders]

Thats why its a discussion forum mate and not a dictation forum like others.


Exactly why i love this forum. Views aired and no self professed reefing gods who think they know everything.

A breath of fresh air :)

Cudders

[MR Teee]

Exactly why i love this forum. Views aired and no self professed reefing gods who think they know everything.

A breath of fresh air :)

Cudders

What do you mean! You wasn't saying that the other day when you were praying at my feet!

[Kev]

lol. No one messes with Mr Teeee!!!!:D

[Cudders]

:D :D :D LoL :D