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Gaters
10-23-2008, 11:21 AM
I've just been lurking on RC (USA site) and one of their members has written this great piece on fish to avoid and 'expert' only fish. He has put in the thread "feel free" to post on other forums so here goes.


Fish To Be Avoided: (fish that have incredibly low survivability in aquaria or are totally unsuitable for home aquaria)


Moorish Idol (a few success stories but miniscule amounts live long, difficult feeder, mystery deaths, and even when accepting prepared foods often slowly starves)

Holacanthus tricolor [Rock Beauty] (nearly impossible to meet the dietary needs in home aquaria)

Centropyge heraldi (almost always caught using drugs)
Centropyge multifasciatus (this and the venusta are very similar, they don't adapt to aquarium life well, and both seem particularly prone to Lymphocystis)
Centropyge venusta

Clown tang (VERY ich prone and a finicky eater, horrible survival rates, when they do live they can be quite mean)

Clown Sweetlips(difficult feeders and get quite large)
Oriental Sweetlips

Platax pinnatus [Pinnatus Batfish] (gorgeous fish when young, very very few success stories, diet and disease are big issues)
Platax batavianus [Tiger Tiera Batfish] (see above)

Orange Spotted Filefish (specialized coral polyp feeder)

Most Butterlyfish (except those listed below)

Ribbon Eels (rarely eat in captivity)
Snake Eels
Garden Eels

Cleaner Wrasses (specialized parasite feeders, leave them in the ocean where they can do their job)
Anampses sp. Wrasses (VERY poor shippers and need tanks with their special needs in mind, even then they often perish)
Leopard (Macropharyngodon) Wrasses (see above but there are more success stories, must be kept in reef aquariums)
Pseodojuloides Wrasses (very sensitive, they almost always die in transit so you don't see them very often if ever)

Parrotfish

Tilefish (VERY timid and difficult to get to eat, also excellent at carpet surfing)

Sharks

Rays

Skates

Grunts

Jacks

Drums

Trumpetfish

Remoras (unless you have a large Shark or Whale in your backyard oceanarium probably not a good idea)

Chambered Nautilus ( a plethora of reasons to leave them in the ocean, not a single good reason to add one to an aquarium)



Fish Best Left For Experienced Or Knowledgable Hobbyists:
(finicky nature, parasite prone, specialty feeders, require specialty tanks, or threatened species)


Anthias (require a good amount of swimming room, peaceful tankmates, and frequent feedings, often unhealthy and starving by the time they make it to dealers tanks, some almost require special tanks with their needs in mind)
Twinspot Anthias (one of the more difficult standouts of the Anthias)
Square Anthias (collection methods, stress, and starvation after collection seem to be especially problematic here)

Platax tiera (can very hardy once acclimated but there can be problems feeding, they stress easily, and are disease prone)

Regal Angelfish (Red Sea Specimens tend to be hardier and more willing to accept prepared foods and the more recent trend to keep this fish in reef aquariums helps with survivability)
Bicolor Angelfish (concerns with drugs used in collection and frequent unwillingness to accept prepared foods)
Genicanthus sp. angelfish (hardy once acclimated, but lots of problem specimens due to the depths they are collected at, take extra special care in examining and observing them before purchase)

Garibaldi (cold water species and protected)

Trunkfish (most are rather sensitive and can release toxins when stresed or dying)

Clown and Gumdrop gobies (poor shipper, once established a good surviver with less boisterous fish)
Catalina gobies (coldwater species that will not do well longterm in tropical temps)
Mandarin Dragonettte (requires large amounts of live food typically which can be provided naturally in 50+ gal. tanks with a good amount of live rock, will only rarely accept prepared foods)

Radiata Lionfish
Fu manchu Lionfish (All the dwarf Lions require tanks with their needs in mind, the later two are also very sensitive, very shy, and poor shippers)
Dwarf Zebra Lionfish

Anglerfish (most get very large and can consume fish nearly their own size)

Acanthurus sp. tangs (ich prone and fairly sensitive to water conditions, Achilles, Powder Blue, Powder Brown, and Goldrim can be rather difficult and beginners should be especially leary)

Ctenochaetus tangs (ich prone, some of the hardier tangs once established, the Chevron is probably the least hardy of the genus)

All Butterflyfish (except Vagabond, Longnose, Heniochus, Golden, Pebbled, Klein's, Lemon, Auriga, and Racoon, which need large tanks)

Seahorses (need quiet species tanks and large quantities of nutritious live food)
Seadragons (very rare and I'm unaware of any longterm success)
Pipefish (see Seahorses)

Longnose Hawkfish (hardy fish but they are notorious jumpers and be careful with ornamental shrimp with all Hawkfish)

Porcupine Pufferfish (can be hardy but also seem very disease prone)

Fairy wrasses [Paracheilinus and Cirrilabrus sp.] (require peaceful tanks and do best in reef aquariums, they stress easily and the first few weeks in captivity will often make or break their longevity)

Leopard Blenny [Exallias brevis] (specialized coral feeders)
Scooter Blenny (see Mandarin Dragonettes)
Lawnmower Blenny (will sometimes not accept prepared foods and will starve to death in tanks without a natural algae food source)

Sandhopper

Sleeper Gobys (Valenciennea sp.) (sometimes starve to death even when accepting prepared foods, tanks with large sandbeds containing lots of food will help as will frequent feedings when they will eat, mated pairs may help as well)
Rainford's Goby (often will not accept prepared foods, need established tanks with peaceful fish a sandbed full of life)
Twinspot Goby (combine the suggestions above for this one)

Cephalopods (not fish, but including them here because of their intelligence compared to the dumb lumps of goo that are most invertebrates, the Nautilus from above is in this group as well)
Octopi (must have species tanks, lots of swimming room, and should probably be on the above list)
Cuttlefish (similar care to Octopi, but slightly higher success rates)
Squid




[B]Fish That Require Huge Aquariums (200 gallons or more):


Sharks/Rays/Skates (require much larger than 200 gal. and should just be left out of home aquaria, Nurse sharks can grow to 14ft. long!, repeating this one so it sinks in)

Most Groupers (especially take note of the cute little Panther Groupers)

Snappers (those cute little Red Emperor Snappers get big)

Naso sp. Tangs (Many will even outgrow common sizes like 125 gal. aquariums)

Moray Eels (large species)

Soldierfish

Orbi and Spade Batfish

Twinspot wrasse (Coris aygula) (beginners take special note of these three as they're often offered as cute juveniles, they get very large and very mean)
Red coris wrasse
Dragon wrasse

Flounder

Tassled filefish (often offerer when cute and tiny but grow large)

Many Large Angels (when purchasing any angelfish that isn't Centropyge be sure to check their ultimate size: take special note of the French, Gray, Blue, and Queen whcih are often offered as cute little juvenilles)



Venomous and/or Toxic Species:


Stonefish (can be deadly)

Lionfish

Rabbitfish/Foxfaces

Scorpionfish

Coral Catfish (these also get up to a foot long and no longer school once larger)

Bluering Octopus (can be deadly)

Toadfish

Canary Blenny (venomous bites that can be painful but little else)

Flower Urchins (can be deadly but rarely encountered in the aquarium trade)

Black Longspine Sea Urchin (can inflict painful wounds, some debate exists whether or not they are really venomous)

Cone Shells (rarely encountered in the aquarium trade, can be deadly)

Stingrays (many have venom associated with the spike on the tail which they use in self defense, don't get stung in the chest and you should live to tell about it)

Sea Snakes (I know of no one attempting to keep them in captivity, but included for good measure)

Box Jellyfish (quite deadly but of no concern to aquarists)

Hell's Fire Anemonen (while all anemones are capable of stinging, this is the one of the few to be concerned about, very painful stings)

Hydroids (usually just cause skin irritation if anything)

Fire Coral (see above)

Zoanthids (some of these can contain Palytoxin which can be quite dangerous and make you very ill, they're quite frequently harmless but if you want to err on the side of caution rubber gloves are a good idea when handling them, as are goggles when fragging them)



Extremely Aggressive Species:


Undulated Triggerfish (the meanest auqarium fish available in all likelyhood)
Queen Triggerfish (not quite as bad as the Undulated, but pretty close and they get very large)
Clown Triggerfish (pretty similar in demeanor to the above two)
Blueline Triggerfish (not so bad when young but a beast once it grows, perhaps the least aggressive of the four)

Passer Angelfish (probably the meanest of all Angelfish, I've seen them take over tanks)

Damselfish (they're not all bad, but ounce for ounce some of them are the meanest fish around, think twice about adding them as some of your first specimens)

Maroon Clownfish (females get quite large and they can get quite mean and bully any tankmates that dare come close, they're also probably the least tolerant of other clown species)

Sohal Tang (hardier than the Clown Tang but just about as mean, probably best to keep them as the lone Tang and if you must keep one in a community reef tank make it your last fish addition)



Inverts To Be Avoided Or Better Left To Experts:


Non-photosynyhetic Corals and Gorgonids [Sun polyps, Carnation, Devils Hand, Chili Coral, etc.] (if it's a soft coral and not green or brown in part and is very vividly colored odds are it's non-photosynthetic and requires more small particles of food than most aquarists are willing to provide, the only non photosynthetic stoney corals frequently seen are Tubastrea sp., regular feedings of meatier foots can lead to success with these)

Christmas Tree Worms (filters feeders that rarely live long in home aquaria)

Coco Worms (see above)

Goniopora sp. (some strides have been made but still miserably low survival rates, stokesi is the most common and seems to be the least hardy in the genus)

Feather Starfish (require huge amounts of flow and large amounts of tiny planktonic organisms)
Basket Starfish
Crown of Thorns Starfish (duh!)
Linkia Starfish (disease issues and poor acclimation to aquarium life, problem feeders as well)

Wild SPS Corals (small-polyped scleractinian) that are not frags (wild colonies can be particularly adapted to flow and light from their natural environment and often do poorly once in aquaria, see out hardy aquacultered specimens)

Sea Apples (often slowly waste away in starve to death if not offered large amounts of food appropriate for filter feeders, also chances of toxins being released and possibly killing other organisms)

Sea Pens (still offered in the aquarium trade but chances of survival are very poor with this filter feeder)

Giant Xenia (this one rarely does well once established and like most other xenia does not ship well)

Sea Slugs and Nudibranchs (very specialized feeders, a couple can be useful to elimate pests but it is very difficult to sustain a food source for even those, they're also very prone to damage by overflows and pumps)

Flame Scallop (filter feeders that usually waste away in home aquaria, the same goes for other Scallops which are les frequently encountered in the trade)

Anemones (most anemones should be placed in specialty tanks and also have very poor survival rates, beginners should not attempt Anemones without extensive research)
Bright Yellow Anemones (dyed; and done most commonly with Sebae, but also seen less frequently with Long Tentacle and Carpet anemones)

Harlequin/Clown Shrimp (must have live feeder starfish to survive)
Camel/Mechanical shrimp (Not reef safe but often sold as as such)

Elegance Coral (recent poor survival possibly due to a disease, other factors might relate to them coming from higher nutrient environments)

Red Serpent Starfish (often disolve and waste away and can be very fragile)

Pipe Organ Coral [Tubipora Musica] (often hacked off from a larger colony, recent survival seems better than in the past)

Large Sponges (often hacked off from large colonies of their rock base, also exposed to air for too long which leads to their demose, bright orange and yellow colors are common)



Special Notes:


Clownfish [Amphiprion sp.] (various species often acclimate poorly to aquarium life and suffer greatly from collection stress, I've seen estimates that as little as five percent of those collected live to be in home aquaria, when possible buy tank raised specimens)

Bangaii/Borneo Cardinals [Pterapogon kauderrni] (rather limited in range and rumors of an unsustainable population if the current rate of collection continues, there are also stories of poor survival after collection, buy tank raised when possible)

Tangs (should have larger aquarium to provide them plenty of swimming room, no a tang is not suitable for your nano cube or 29 gallon tank, when small 3'-4' aquariums can be suitable for short periods of time, though bigger is recommended by many, just be sure you're planning an upgrade in the near future as they can grow fast)

Angelfish (their compatibility with corals and clams is often brought up and debated, outside of Geniacanthus there really is no such thing as a "reef safe" Angelfish, before purchasing one consider how difficult one would be to catch out of your display tank after it decides your corals and favorite clam are delicious, they can be model citizens but there is always a risk associated in reef aquariums)

marinemike
10-23-2008, 11:39 AM
nice find.

mfcfan
10-23-2008, 01:58 PM
very intresting article some food for thought there thanx for sharing:)

steve :)

ojp
10-23-2008, 02:51 PM
Very interesting. Suprised no mention of triggers. Unless i missed it

Tangman
10-23-2008, 03:00 PM
Hi Neil if any reefer worth hi/her salt they should know most of this, as i have read it when i first got into and after i started keeping marines. There are exceptions with every fish ie Moorish Idols most as is said die but some do survive and live for many years. Derek aka Moorish has had one for about 4 years now and it eats as if there is no tomorrow. It is same with all fish they should be left in the sea by rights instead of being in a tank for us to gawp at.

Like Cleaner Wrasses i have had about 4 in the time i have kept fish, the first one lived 6 years, the next one lived about 4 years, the third one live about 7 years, and my last one i have had for 4 years.

In my Opinion its the LFS to blame as if they did not stock these so called no no fish they would not die. But like all livestock even a healthy animal can die for no reason. Having been a farmer and kept large amounts of livestock ie Cows/Sheep/Pigs and horses, they can be perfectly well and next morning they are dead.

Also if which is impossible all reefers did the research on the fish they buy, this would not happen as they would not buy a fish that grew to 36 inch long from a 3 inch tiddler. I have watched a family in any LFS and the wife and kids are saying oh look at that fish is'nt it lovely, and when i look they are looking at a Panther Grouper thats about 3 inch long. So the next thing is they are asking the shop owner or a spotty 16 year old will it be ok with my 2 Nemo's, and are told yes no problem as long as you keep it well fed and it will be fine. Now most reefers who has a crumb of sense hears bells ringing, and many a time i have jumped in and said something to the buyers about what they are buying and got dirty looks off the shop owner. I know we all remember that shop that used to sell these fish, that when i once said something i was banned from it but thats another story.

I could go on for hours saying whats right and what is'nt, but at the end of the day its all down to educating the new keepers which is needed. I have said for years that all LFS should by law be made to put a list up in there shop, of what fish are ok and what fish are not ok to keep so that when anyone goes to buy fish are made aware of the list. But at the end of the day who can blame the shop keeper when the buyer wants to buy it, as its about making money and a living for him thats why he has a shop.

Its a very good article and should be shown and read by everyone who keeps fish. Twiggy:bigthumbup:

moorish
10-23-2008, 03:15 PM
very interesting article.derek

cl0wn
10-23-2008, 05:43 PM
perhaps it could be stickied in the noob section, very valuable reference tool.

MrTang
10-23-2008, 06:35 PM
ohh well im ******ed then as i have a moorish idol and is doing great had him in my tank for 3months now and he is fatter than ever :bigthumbup:

Gaters
10-24-2008, 12:28 AM
ohh well im ******ed then as i have a moorish idol and is doing great had him in my tank for 3months now and he is fatter than ever :bigthumbup:

It does say 'fish to be avoided' your situation is not the norm' as you (probably, or should) well know!!!;);)

shaunroach
10-25-2008, 08:07 PM
lol i already have a Oriental Sweetlips very nice fish

Gaters
10-25-2008, 08:16 PM
lol i already have a Oriental Sweetlips very nice fish


I hope you have a very large tank-they grow to 2 ft 10" very quickly and don't be surprised when your snails and crabs start to disappear. ;):D

Tangman
10-25-2008, 08:23 PM
lol i already have a Oriental Sweetlips very nice fish
Hi not being funny but this is what this is about, do you know what size your Sweetlips will grow to and have you a tank large enough to keep it in. Did you look up and do research on this fish before you bought it, or was it a case of oh thats a nice fish i think i will buy it and tool it home with you there and then. Its about educating people to what fish they buy and keep, as when you buy a 2inch tiddler and 2 or 3 years later you have a 3foot monster thats has eaten all the other fish in your tank. HTH Twiggy:D:D

Gaters
10-25-2008, 08:32 PM
Hi not being funny but this is what this is about, do you know what size your Sweetlips will grow to and have you a tank large enough to keep it in. Did you look up and do research on this fish before you bought it, or was it a case of oh thats a nice fish i think i will buy it and tool it home with you there and then. Its about educating people to what fish they buy and keep, as when you buy a 2inch tiddler and 2 or 3 years later you have a 3foot monster thats has eaten all the other fish in your tank. HTH Twiggy:D:D

Completely agree Tangman maybe if more people could read this Sweetlips would be left in the sea where they can grow to 3 foot. I believe most public aquariums are turning them away now.

Tangman
10-25-2008, 08:41 PM
Completely agree Tangman maybe if more people could read this Sweetlips would be left in the sea where they can grow to 3 foot. I believe most public aquariums are turning them away now.
Hi yes most Public Aquariums are turning away large fish as they are overstocked. It will need a law to be passed to stop fish like this being brought in to the country. Twiggy:D

Tommmo
01-08-2009, 12:04 AM
I had a field day when this topic came up on another forum. None of these fish are easy, but for those dedicated peoples who will spend time with their stock they certainly arent species to avoid!

Toms version

Moorish Idol (a few success stories but miniscule amounts live long, difficult feeder, mystery deaths, and even when accepting prepared foods often slowly starves)

Tom says, Mystery deaths are becoming a thing of the past, more and more specimens feed well in captivity and fewer and fewer now die prematurely due to a far better range and quality of feeds on offer- NEW ERA ALL THE WAY

Holacanthus tricolor [Rock Beauty] (nearly impossible to meet the dietary needs in home aquaria)

Tom says, This angel, with the advent of new foods is now practical if researched properly though its size can be phenominal

Centropyge heraldi (almost always caught using drugs)

Tom says, This is because of poor sourcing, a good herald's makes an aggressive feeding model aquarium citizen and is also less prone to nipping your lovely corals

Centropyge multifasciatus (this and the venusta are very similar, they don't adapt to aquarium life well, and both seem particularly prone to Lymphocystis)
Centropyge venusta

Tom says, Both these speices are improperly acclimated to captivity. they are shoved too soon into bright aquaria and will immediately stress. Little or no concern is given to their sponge and diatom diet (they do better in dirty tanks for a reason) these fish arent that difficult but need to be slowly adapted to light and they wont survive in a sterile stingily fed coral focussed reef aquarium that most people (wrongly) own To prevent lymph feed new era and the aegis supplements as directed.
Clown tang (VERY ich prone and a finicky eater, horrible survival rates, when they do live they can be quite mean)

Tom says, Never really a bad eater as such what tends to happen is that they waste very rapidly and then become very WHITESPOT prone IMO they need worming and quarantining for three weeks. If treat properly they are good aquarium fish if a little agressive

Clown Sweetlips(difficult feeders and get quite large)
Oriental Sweetlips

Tom says, Yet again victim to improper acclimatisation, should be wormed but generally feed like pigs once de wormed and de fluked

Platax pinnatus [Pinnatus Batfish] (gorgeous fish when young, very very few success stories, diet and disease are big issues)
Platax batavianus [Tiger Tiera Batfish] (see above)

Tom says, Needs jellyfish and poor immunity is directly related to poor diet

Orange Spotted Filefish (specialized coral polyp feeder)

Tom says, always eats, rarely gets fed enough, will eat flake and anything within a week or two if acclimated properly

Most Butterlyfish (except those listed below)

Tom says, a very variable family with several massive issues, obligate coral eaters are difficult, collection is sometimes an issue. they are hardy water wise and rarely fall victim to disease if in a good state of feeding

Ribbon Eels (rarely eat in captivity)

Tom says, lazy people have given this fish its atrocious reputation with some rigourous training they all eat

Snake Eels

Tom says, As for ribbon eels

Garden Eels

Tom says, In a specialised tank these are fantastic pets and eat well

Cleaner Wrasses (specialized parasite feeders, leave them in the ocean where they can do their job)

Tom says, Ive never understood this one, they are hardy and eat well (hawaiian one is difficult but not impossible)

Anampses sp. Wrasses (VERY poor shippers and need tanks with their special needs in mind, even then they often perish)
Leopard (Macropharyngodon) Wrasses (see above but there are more success stories, must be kept in reef aquariums)
Pseodojuloides Wrasses (very sensitive, they almost always die in transit so you don't see them very often if ever)

Tom says, Pick suppliers carefully apart from that, if quarantined and acclimatised properly they can make great aquarium additions

Parrotfish

Tom says, eat rock

Tilefish (VERY timid and difficult to get to eat, also excellent at carpet surfing)

Tom says, they feed well but do need a covered tank and are very prone to bacterial skin conditions

Sharks

Tom says, too big

Rays

Tom says, too big

Skates

Tom says, too big

Grunts
Jacks
Drums

Tom says, the smaller species are super

Trumpetfish

Tom says, Super duper aquarium fish if your tank is big enough

Remoras (unless you have a large Shark or Whale in your backyard oceanarium probably not a good idea)

Tom says, not the best

Chambered Nautilus ( a plethora of reasons to leave them in the ocean, not a single good reason to add one to an aquarium)

Tom says, These are great, if challenging but for public aquaria or the specialist only TBH

Gaters
01-08-2009, 08:20 AM
Tom not one to argue but most seasoned reefers know exactly what you amended. However, i posted this without editing in a hope that some newbies would maybe have a read and not buy that lovely Moorish idol, or one of the sweetlips etc. Just as a note i've never known anybody have a problem when acclimating any sweet lips it's when they get to 2.5 foot, in a short time, and eat everything in the tank that's a problem. Please don't try to say these are suitable in your normal everyday home aquarium. They are NOT. Further-you say that chambered nautilus are for specialists or public aquaria but sharks, skates and rays are 'too big'-does this mean you believe public aquariums and specialists shouldn't keep them? Do you know alot of everyday reefers with the ability to set up a garden eel tank? Or a 3 foot+ deep tank for a pinnatus batfish? I doubt it. This post was meant as a guideline and more for new reefers. By trivialising and rubbishing some of the comments all you are doing is condeming more sweelips, butterflys, eels, wrasses etc to slow, stressed, painful deaths in completely unsuitable aquariums of newbies. Nice one Tom!

Tommmo
01-08-2009, 01:29 PM
That was not the aim of my post, You misinterpret me!

These fish are and will remain part of the trade no matter what we try and do, My post describes the way in which these fish's main issues can be overcome. It is helpful if people get lumbered with one of these species for a start and gives them a starting point to work with. It is however, and i always maintain this, down to the individual to research the individual species and its requirements.

Without continual research we wouldnt get anywhere. Keeping these difficult species helps us understand what is going on in their natural habitats and how they behave. Only with great understanding can we ascertain what effects we are having on a species. Most things are discovered accidentally!

With, for example the fish where poor sourcing is an issue, or having the patience with them These are a different ball game, and the ease with which many fish take to aquarium feeds, many difficult ones die because people wont spend the time with them or ,like with anampses wrasse and herald's angel people continue to purchase fish from sources whos collection methods are dubious just to make a quick $$$ when good quality specimens actually make really hardy aquarium fish!

My First sentence says it all!

FOR THOSE DEDICATED PEOPLES WHO WILL SPEND TIME WITH THEIR LIVESTOCK.- this includes the research.

All your post is doing is putting off potential dedicated aquarists by labelling everything you mention as impossible.

This list could be taken as hypocritical in many cases. There are several smaller species of sweetlip such as the lined and the whiteline that only grow as large as say, a tang, or a typical large pomacanthus angel, that are quite practical home aquarium subjects *as much as the tangs and angels are anyway* so unless you are including these tangs and angels on the grouds of size as well then this list is pointless.

I know a few people who instead of the seahorse route have set up a specialist tank for garden eels. they really are interesting animals which do get used to the whole captive idea relishing their plankton and mysis feeds as well as crushed flake! They are very practical.

Lists Like this really get my back up and always have done its sheer condemnation IMO!

Tom

Gaters
01-08-2009, 02:28 PM
Firstly the post said absolutely nothing about any other sweetlips apart from clown and oriental-so not hypocritical in that respect. Do you disagree that these are unsuitable for home aquaria? In fact even lined sweetlips, i presume you mean plectorhinchus gaterinoides, get to over 1 foot in size. How many everyday reefers do you know with facilities to look after a large 1 foot+ tang or pomacanthus angel, never mind a sweetlips? The average tank size, at a guess, most people have will be 4x2x2. So your saying these people shouldn't avoid such species?

You said it yourself:

"It is helpful if people get lumbered with one of these species for a start and gives them a starting point to work with. It is however, and i always maintain this, down to the individual to research the individual species and its requirements."

Surely it's better to put people off 'getting lumbered' with one of these altogether. Then the DEDICATED PEOPLES WHO SPEND TIME with their livestock can research the species and make an intelligent and informed decision as to whether they are suitable, or not in most cases.

I completely disagree that the post puts of potential dedicated aquarists. Nothing was labelled impossible and the same dedicated aquarists will, more than likely, research from the same books and online you and i have read from. We both know it would be foolish to take everything from 1 post on a bb and treat it as gospel.

I also note you said i know A FEW people who have set up garden eel tanks-don't we all but that doesn't make them any easier to keep for the average reefer. Similarly, moorish idols and the poorly sourced fish you talk about all possess problems for the average reefer. How many do you know who can order stock from anywhere but their lfs? Most wouldn't question where and how a fish was collected. In these cases, which WILL make up most brought into the country the fish are best avoided-would you agree? The dedicated aquarist can then source the fish from reputable suppliers after doing their research.

It seems to me that the only reason you questioned the list in the first place is to further you own ego-after all any one of us who have kept marines for more than a couple of years would research any potential new purchase and make our own informed decision. Not rely on 1 post on a bulletin board which is obviously designed to 'put off' anyone who 'gets lumbered' with a fish best avoided in their case.

Tommmo
01-08-2009, 02:48 PM
My ego has nothing to do with my post. My post Is aimed at the very point with which you disagree that this list will not put dedicated peoples off. It doesnt matter how much you disagree with me I wont back down on this one.

The number of people i have helped out with the mentioned species has been unreal! if all you say is 'you shouldnt have it' thats not particularly helpful.

Sometimes its species like these that create the real aquarists

Tom

Gaters
01-08-2009, 03:06 PM
Which is exactly my point-it won't put dedicated aquarists off but it may just stop one or two newbies buying a clown sweetlips, moorish idol or acanthurus tang for their 1 month old nano! At least then you won't have to help them with unsuitable fish in the first place. Surely you can't disagree with this?

Tommmo
01-08-2009, 03:25 PM
I do agree with that, I just think there isnt really enough explanation given by a thread listing in the way this one does

Tom